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I’ll be honest 200hp doesn’t exactly blow up my skirt

by cbdevidal 4mo ago

speed_spread 4mo ago
But the extra torque might sizzle your drizzle
- someguyiguess 4mo ago
  266 lb/ft? Nah. Maybe for a go kart.
  - tclancy 4mo ago
    Electric motors don’t have torque curves. It’s all available right away. As a kid I remember reading in Wired about an electric car scene in California where they had to learn things the hard way and one guy’s maiden voyage ended still in his driveway with the backend split in two.
    - cucumber3732842 4mo ago
      This is essentially the "area under the curve" argument. But it's been polluted to absurdum by Internet fanboys with an agenda so now everyone thinks EVs are some magical thing that don't abide by the laws of physics. No amount of fanboy screeching is going to change the fact that it's only 200hp. Compared to a bone stock 70s/80s car that made 200-250hp from the factory this will 200hp EV will be a riot. But at $20k that's not what it's being compared against. The 500+HP LS crate motor and transmission combo (i.e. what this is being cross shopped against) are going to make more than that from ~2500rpm on up. If you graph power available at a given output RPM with an electric motor you get a line. With an ICE you get an upward and then tapering off curve. When you add transmission gears to the ICE it's a series of essentially overlapping saw teeth except on the first gear where it goes all the way down to whatever power you make at 1500-2000rpm (so like a little under 100hp for a ~500hp engine, probably like 30hp for an ICE that makes ~200hp stock). Basically even with a flat curve there comes a point where the taller curve is so much taller it still wins. When comparing to cars of about the same horsepower the EVis gonna win every time, because flat curve. Even if comparing to a more powerful ICE car where the areas are approx. equal you don't have to pull back to shift (even CVTs "shift", it's for longevity reasons) and the ICE is probably not geared deep enough for best initial acceleration (though for "modern" power levels both cars have more than enough to roast the tires) the EV is still probably better. And as an side I think it's dumb that they make you replace the transmission. There are tons and tons and tons of cars out there that either still have the original transmission or someone swapped an SBC into them in 19-whatever. Being able to just replace the engine would make the swap a ton more accessible because you don't have to also add transmission mounting, controls, driveshaft, etc. to the list. Most older transmissions can handle "muh EV torque" just fine. It's the shifting under torque they don't like. Basically this is cool but I think it's too expensive for the specs it has. Edit: Not calling you a stupid fanboy, just saying you've been mislead by them.
      - chiph 4mo ago
        There will be torque multiplication by the transmission in 1st through 2nd so it won't be as much of a dog as you think. Race car, no. But it'll hold it's own in modern traffic unlike a lot of older cars. Out of curiosity I looked up the ratios for the mentioned 4L60 transmission: 1st is 3.059:1, 2nd is 1.625:1, 3rd is direct drive at 1.00:1 and 4th is overdrive at 0.696:1. Then you'll have the ratio in your rear differential, whatever that happens to be. My high school car was a 1975 Impala with the 350 cubic inch small block V8. Because of the Malaise Era emissions laws, it only produced 145hp but still had decent torque at 250ft·lb. It had a huge amount of space under the hood so perhaps this could fit both the motor and battery in there? (F/R weight balance being ignored) Your point about people comparing this against the LS crate motor is correct IMO. This will be an expensive low-volume kit until (if!) economies of scale kick in. Only bought by people who want something different to show off to their friends at the weekend car shows.
        SoftTalker 4mo ago
        > hold it's own in modern traffic A 90HP Volkswagen will do that. Nobody needs 200HP to keep up with traffic.
        bluGill 4mo ago
        The people who drive performance cars do. I never had a problem in my old Geo metro making 50hp - except when following a corvette - they always waiting until the end to accelerate and I needed the whole ramp to get up to speed. It works for them because they had enough power for that trick.
        cucumber3732842 4mo ago
        People get worse at merging when they have more power on tap. Saw it in my own household.
        cucumber3732842 4mo ago
        50hp per ~1000lb is just about the minimmum it if you want to hold highway speed on inclines
alistairSH 4mo ago
Yeah, agreed. And I suspect the motor/battery combination will be too heavy for the type of car in which the 200hp/260lbft would be fun (Miata, vintage VW, etc). But for a restomod muscle car? Gimme that LS V8 goodness with the sweet sweet brumble brumble brumble noises and smoky burnouts (on private property only, obv).

I’ll be honest 200hp doesn’t exactly blow up my skirt

speed_spread 4mo ago

But the extra torque might sizzle your drizzle

someguyiguess 4mo ago
266 lb/ft? Nah. Maybe for a go kart.
- tclancy 4mo ago
  Electric motors don’t have torque curves. It’s all available right away. As a kid I remember reading in Wired about an electric car scene in California where they had to learn things the hard way and one guy’s maiden voyage ended still in his driveway with the backend split in two.
  - cucumber3732842 4mo ago
    This is essentially the "area under the curve" argument. But it's been polluted to absurdum by Internet fanboys with an agenda so now everyone thinks EVs are some magical thing that don't abide by the laws of physics. No amount of fanboy screeching is going to change the fact that it's only 200hp. Compared to a bone stock 70s/80s car that made 200-250hp from the factory this will 200hp EV will be a riot. But at $20k that's not what it's being compared against. The 500+HP LS crate motor and transmission combo (i.e. what this is being cross shopped against) are going to make more than that from ~2500rpm on up. If you graph power available at a given output RPM with an electric motor you get a line. With an ICE you get an upward and then tapering off curve. When you add transmission gears to the ICE it's a series of essentially overlapping saw teeth except on the first gear where it goes all the way down to whatever power you make at 1500-2000rpm (so like a little under 100hp for a ~500hp engine, probably like 30hp for an ICE that makes ~200hp stock). Basically even with a flat curve there comes a point where the taller curve is so much taller it still wins. When comparing to cars of about the same horsepower the EVis gonna win every time, because flat curve. Even if comparing to a more powerful ICE car where the areas are approx. equal you don't have to pull back to shift (even CVTs "shift", it's for longevity reasons) and the ICE is probably not geared deep enough for best initial acceleration (though for "modern" power levels both cars have more than enough to roast the tires) the EV is still probably better. And as an side I think it's dumb that they make you replace the transmission. There are tons and tons and tons of cars out there that either still have the original transmission or someone swapped an SBC into them in 19-whatever. Being able to just replace the engine would make the swap a ton more accessible because you don't have to also add transmission mounting, controls, driveshaft, etc. to the list. Most older transmissions can handle "muh EV torque" just fine. It's the shifting under torque they don't like. Basically this is cool but I think it's too expensive for the specs it has. Edit: Not calling you a stupid fanboy, just saying you've been mislead by them.
    - chiph 4mo ago
      There will be torque multiplication by the transmission in 1st through 2nd so it won't be as much of a dog as you think. Race car, no. But it'll hold it's own in modern traffic unlike a lot of older cars. Out of curiosity I looked up the ratios for the mentioned 4L60 transmission: 1st is 3.059:1, 2nd is 1.625:1, 3rd is direct drive at 1.00:1 and 4th is overdrive at 0.696:1. Then you'll have the ratio in your rear differential, whatever that happens to be. My high school car was a 1975 Impala with the 350 cubic inch small block V8. Because of the Malaise Era emissions laws, it only produced 145hp but still had decent torque at 250ft·lb. It had a huge amount of space under the hood so perhaps this could fit both the motor and battery in there? (F/R weight balance being ignored) Your point about people comparing this against the LS crate motor is correct IMO. This will be an expensive low-volume kit until (if!) economies of scale kick in. Only bought by people who want something different to show off to their friends at the weekend car shows.
      - SoftTalker 4mo ago
        > hold it's own in modern traffic A 90HP Volkswagen will do that. Nobody needs 200HP to keep up with traffic.
        bluGill 4mo ago
        The people who drive performance cars do. I never had a problem in my old Geo metro making 50hp - except when following a corvette - they always waiting until the end to accelerate and I needed the whole ramp to get up to speed. It works for them because they had enough power for that trick.
        cucumber3732842 4mo ago
        People get worse at merging when they have more power on tap. Saw it in my own household.
        cucumber3732842 4mo ago
        50hp per ~1000lb is just about the minimmum it if you want to hold highway speed on inclines

alistairSH 4mo ago

Yeah, agreed. And I suspect the motor/battery combination will be too heavy for the type of car in which the 200hp/260lbft would be fun (Miata, vintage VW, etc). But for a restomod muscle car? Gimme that LS V8 goodness with the sweet sweet brumble brumble brumble noises and smoky burnouts (on private property only, obv).