7 ms·

I never understood this attitude from native speakers towards their own language. I am a fresh NL citizen, and have struggled SO MUCH to assimilate into society

I never understood this attitude from native speakers towards their own language. I am a fresh NL citizen, and have struggled SO MUCH to assimilate into society largely due to this prevalent mentality of "dutch sux actually, we can all speak english amirite guys??" its so bafflingly self-destructive to your own culture. But go off I guess.

mihaelm 5mo ago
I didn't understand him that way. It's more that it helps if people can more easily pick up a foreign language, or solidify their skills, along the way through media. Doubly so when it's a lingua franca like English. Though for you, I understand you might have been peeved if people kept switching to English when you just wanted to practice Dutch.
- rapnie 5mo ago
  Yes, I meant it that way. And yes, Dutch people too easily switch to English when someone they encountered is not very proficient in Dutch. It is a kind of 'helpfulness' which is not so helpful for foreigners who want to learn Dutch, and I agree that more Dutch people should make the effort and not the easy language switch.
tverbeure 5mo ago
You've probably never watched Indiana Jones speak French... I was forced to when staying for 2 weeks in the south of Belgium as part of a French immersion program. It's unbearable. When I watch an American movie, I want to hear it the way the director intended it to be. I don't want every villain in every movie have the same voice. If I want to hear Dutch in a movie, I watch a Dutch movie. It's not that deep. The fact that it helps kids learn a different language is a very nice fringe benefit. I remember watching an English movie with an incorrect subtitle in school when I was 12, well before my first English class. The whole auditorium laughed because everyone caught the error.
- loloquwowndueo 5mo ago
  > I don't want every villain in every movie have the same voice. Sounds like your problem is with crappy, cheap dubbing, not dubbing in general. Look at Disney animation for dubbing done right (and more so in the 20th century - these days I’m not so sure).
  - tverbeure 5mo ago
    Yeah, because I totally have control over who’s dubbing movies in France.
  - pessimizer 5mo ago
    A cartoon is the worst possible example.
    - loloquwowndueo 5mo ago
      Tell us more.
- numpad0 5mo ago
  I don't think that generalize to dubs as concept itself, I know for the fact that Japanese dub of Commando(1985)[1] is quite something. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commando_(1985_film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commando_(1985_film)
Aaargh20318 5mo ago
I’m a Dutch native and if it were up to me we’d switch to English. I think it’s dumb that small country like us feels the need to maintain its own language. It is a massive disadvantage. It means that we’re always late with new stuff because the Dutch market is so small no one wants to make the effort of building Dutch versions.
- Pay08 5mo ago
  Language is the biggest thing that defines culture. Do you want the Netherlands to perform some sort of countrywide assimilation into British or American culture?
  - embedding-shape 5mo ago
    > Language is the biggest thing that defines culture Lots of countries would disagree with this. Do you not think Peru and Spain has distinct cultures for example? Why/why not?
    - Pay08 5mo ago
      As you can clearly see, I did not say language was the only thing that defines culture. Do you think Peruvian culture is closer to Spanish or Swedish culture?
      - embedding-shape 5mo ago
        Your second question, "Do you want the Netherlands to perform some sort of countrywide assimilation into British or American culture?", really makes it unclear if you actually realize that language isn't the only thing that defines culture, why would that be a question otherwise?
  - mihaelm 5mo ago
    Small countries are already doing this through the Internet since so much of the consumed content is in English.
  - 5mo ago
pdntspa 5mo ago
It's really not that hard. I lived in NL for a year and assimilated Dutch just about as well as my flatmate (a German who was taking a taking a Dutch language class) Go out and pay attention to your surroundings. Read everything. Make dutch friends. Spend some time outside the large cities. Dutch is already like half English just spelled and pronounced way differently.
rapnie 5mo ago
It is 'destructive' to Dutch culture if you don't dub a movie in a foreign language? I claim the opposite. Doesn't pretend everything happens in your own culture, feels more like a kind cultural erasure of sorts. There's still more than enough TV content in native language. What I also noticed often in dubbed material is that the dubbed voice has inaccurate translation, subtle reformulations, or skips spoken words entirely, which in more autoritarian countries gives wriggle room to subtle media manipulation. The Dutch get it straight from the horse's mouth at least.

mihaelm 5mo ago

I didn't understand him that way. It's more that it helps if people can more easily pick up a foreign language, or solidify their skills, along the way through media. Doubly so when it's a lingua franca like English. Though for you, I understand you might have been peeved if people kept switching to English when you just wanted to practice Dutch.

rapnie 5mo ago
Yes, I meant it that way. And yes, Dutch people too easily switch to English when someone they encountered is not very proficient in Dutch. It is a kind of 'helpfulness' which is not so helpful for foreigners who want to learn Dutch, and I agree that more Dutch people should make the effort and not the easy language switch.

tverbeure 5mo ago

You've probably never watched Indiana Jones speak French... I was forced to when staying for 2 weeks in the south of Belgium as part of a French immersion program. It's unbearable. When I watch an American movie, I want to hear it the way the director intended it to be. I don't want every villain in every movie have the same voice. If I want to hear Dutch in a movie, I watch a Dutch movie. It's not that deep. The fact that it helps kids learn a different language is a very nice fringe benefit. I remember watching an English movie with an incorrect subtitle in school when I was 12, well before my first English class. The whole auditorium laughed because everyone caught the error.

loloquwowndueo 5mo ago
> I don't want every villain in every movie have the same voice. Sounds like your problem is with crappy, cheap dubbing, not dubbing in general. Look at Disney animation for dubbing done right (and more so in the 20th century - these days I’m not so sure).
- tverbeure 5mo ago
  Yeah, because I totally have control over who’s dubbing movies in France.
- pessimizer 5mo ago
  A cartoon is the worst possible example.
  - loloquwowndueo 5mo ago
    Tell us more.
numpad0 5mo ago
I don't think that generalize to dubs as concept itself, I know for the fact that Japanese dub of Commando(1985)[1] is quite something. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commando_(1985_film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commando_(1985_film)

Aaargh20318 5mo ago

I’m a Dutch native and if it were up to me we’d switch to English. I think it’s dumb that small country like us feels the need to maintain its own language. It is a massive disadvantage. It means that we’re always late with new stuff because the Dutch market is so small no one wants to make the effort of building Dutch versions.

Pay08 5mo ago
Language is the biggest thing that defines culture. Do you want the Netherlands to perform some sort of countrywide assimilation into British or American culture?
- embedding-shape 5mo ago
  > Language is the biggest thing that defines culture Lots of countries would disagree with this. Do you not think Peru and Spain has distinct cultures for example? Why/why not?
  - Pay08 5mo ago
    As you can clearly see, I did not say language was the only thing that defines culture. Do you think Peruvian culture is closer to Spanish or Swedish culture?
    - embedding-shape 5mo ago
      Your second question, "Do you want the Netherlands to perform some sort of countrywide assimilation into British or American culture?", really makes it unclear if you actually realize that language isn't the only thing that defines culture, why would that be a question otherwise?
- mihaelm 5mo ago
  Small countries are already doing this through the Internet since so much of the consumed content is in English.
- 5mo ago

pdntspa 5mo ago

It's really not that hard. I lived in NL for a year and assimilated Dutch just about as well as my flatmate (a German who was taking a taking a Dutch language class) Go out and pay attention to your surroundings. Read everything. Make dutch friends. Spend some time outside the large cities. Dutch is already like half English just spelled and pronounced way differently.

rapnie 5mo ago

It is 'destructive' to Dutch culture if you don't dub a movie in a foreign language? I claim the opposite. Doesn't pretend everything happens in your own culture, feels more like a kind cultural erasure of sorts. There's still more than enough TV content in native language. What I also noticed often in dubbed material is that the dubbed voice has inaccurate translation, subtle reformulations, or skips spoken words entirely, which in more autoritarian countries gives wriggle room to subtle media manipulation. The Dutch get it straight from the horse's mouth at least.