6 ms·

How does feminism survive if this becomes the norm? If young men feel like they're expected to give more to their society it's natural to expect renumeration fi

• dwedge 6mo ago
  Why would this affect feminism? If they want to fight for equal rights to conscription nobody is stopping them, and if they don't nobody is going to force them to. These gotchas don't really have any reflection on reality.
  • orange_joe 6mo ago
    I am wondering if the affected men will demand preferential treatment as a consequence of service. Women currently benefit from disproportionate employment in the social safety net, affirmative action in German government hiring, etc. I would imagine that this would be essentially offensive to the men who are required to stay in the country, or face (potential future) conscription. I suspect the demands of European governments will increase as countries continue to age.
    • randomNumber7 6mo ago
      > I am wondering if the affected men will demand preferential treatment as a consequence of service. I'm more thinking about leaving asap.
  • missedthecue 6mo ago
    I would define feminism as the belief that on balance and in aggregate, there is a difference in the fairness that society accords to the genders and it's in favor of men. The risk to feminism would be that this becomes so blatantly and obviously not true that no one can take it seriously. I don't think the continued draft of men would impact this because it's not a change to the status quo, and it isn't changing opinion in Ukraine.
    • guerrilla 6mo ago
      > and it's in favor of men. Definitely going to have to disagree there.
      • missedthecue 6mo ago
        You disagree with feminists, or you disagree that feminists essentially hold that viewpoint?
        • guerrilla 6mo ago
          The former.
  • believme1123e4 6mo ago
    [flagged]
• junofan 6mo ago
  It won’t and it never has. It’s not like society post-1945 developed the phenomenon for the first time in human history. Even in this country, New Jersey was the last state to ban women voting in 1807 iirc.
• vidarh 6mo ago
  Norways conscription law was much stricter until very recently. Military police was looking for me to hand deliver my draft notice up until I moved abroad because doing so allows them to charge you and imprison you if you don't show. At the time women were not called in at all. It didn't stop a rapid move towards more equality. And that eventually moved towards more women in the military. Couple that with a reduced need for recruits, and it was relaxed significantly for men. EDIT: I moved in 2000. I finally took a call from the military police the day I landed in London, to gleefully tell them I'd left - the practice was that draft notices would not be delivered abroad, so moving effectively put an end to the matter. Norwegian law also required notifying the military if you left for more than 6 months, and provide evidence. I sent them a letter; they sent me one back demanding evidence. I told them the fact I'd received the letter was evidence and to stop bothering me. They did. Basically, for the Americans who find this weird: In the countries in Europe where this is still a thing, this is a cold war holdover most places. When I was growing up air raid sirens were being tested monthly, and my primary schools' basement was a bomb shelter. It took a lot of time before things were relaxed after the fall of the Soviet Union.
• mikkupikku 6mo ago
  How can a state survive if this weren't the norm? Why would men fight and die for a government that views their own wives and daughters as cannon fodder? If the government is conscripting men's wives to war, is it really in the interest of men to risk their own lives to protect that government? If the government took my wife and sent her to war, I'd sooner firebomb a government office than join up to fight for the government. If a woman wants to fight, that's another story entirely. But conscripting women? That's poison.
  • missedthecue 6mo ago
    Most young men don't have wives or daughters. It's not 1850 anymore. I would rather both genders get drafted than be in a Ukraine situation where millions of women leave for richer countries while I am pulled off the street to go eat FPV drones. What's even the point? Why not surrender? What am I protecting or preserving?
    • nslsm 6mo ago
      You are protecting a society who doesn’t care about you. Aren’t you glad?
      • ashleyn 6mo ago
        This goes missed a lot in debates about conscription. The Iran war in the US and the Ukraine war in Russia enjoy very little popular support among military aged men. This is in stark contrast to WW2, and even in Vietnam there was still a strain of thinking of draft resisters as cowards. But wars in this day and age enjoy a shockingly tiny public mandate, and it's entirely possible that governments can only do a draft on paper. Putin is practically unable to push further mobilisation because the first round provoked such stiff violence and resistance.
    • Ylpertnodi 6mo ago
      > What's even the point? Rich people staying in power is the point. > Why not surrender? Surrendering is not always practicable. You will get killed if you're a liability to your captors. > What am I protecting or preserving? That's really only yours, and yours alone, to consider.
• dataviz1000 6mo ago
  Being able to serve is something the feminists have been fighting for the hardest over decades. The people who are trying to make young men only doing the killing the norm are the same people trying to end feminism. Therefore, there is some logic in your question. When I was in Asia two years ago, as an American, every time I met a young Russian man escaping conscription, drinks were on me as appreciation to their commitment to world peace. I'm in South America now and it is being inundated with young Israeli men running like the Russians were. Nonetheless, I'm on the fence about how I feel buying them drinks.
  • ngruhn 6mo ago
    > Being able to serve is something the feminists have been fighting for the hardest over decades Not heard anyone fight for that once. The more pressing issues seem to he "mansplaining" and men being shirtless in the summer. > Nonetheless, I'm on the fence about how I feel buying them drinks. Why?
  • baal80spam 6mo ago
    > Being able to serve is something the feminists have been fighting for the hardest over decades. If any claim ever required "citation needed", this one is the biggest. I've never seen feminists fight for duties, only for privileges.
    • dataviz1000 6mo ago
      I need to revise what I wrote. The protests and stance have all been against selective service for both men and woman. However, on the flip side, the stance for enlisting and volunteering are opposite. I'll let you Google that one to see if you think if "citation needed". Do you agree that women and men should serve equally in front line combat?
  • selfmodruntime 6mo ago
    No. It is not about Ability. Feminism may fight for ability, but conscription is a Requirement. You're not free to choose. That's the entire point.
  • 6mo ago
• pj_mukh 6mo ago
  How does a government express "anti-feminism". Surely you're not suggesting a reduction in voting power for women. So what else would make it seem "fair" to men in your mind?
  • orange_joe 6mo ago
    I'm not being prescriptive, just observing the likely consequences of gendered policy.
  • nubg 6mo ago
    > Surely you're not suggesting a reduction in voting power for women. Why not? If the male side has "getting droned your legs off and people watching it in 4k", surely everything less than that has to be on the table for the female side. Not being able to vote physically yourself (you can still influence public opinion, eg through social media, imo a far more effective action than casting 1 vote)
• huggerl88 6mo ago
  [flagged]
• anal_reactor 6mo ago
  Feminism survives because it never was about equality, it was about making women the privileged class.
• benj111 6mo ago
  How does the concept of the global citizen survive? You have a group of citizens who are expected to perform military service, and another group who aren't really invested in the country and don't have to serve.
  • throw-the-towel 6mo ago
    This concept never existed, it was always an illusion.
  • MarsIronPI 6mo ago
    > How does the concept of the global citizen survive? Why do we need this concept? Find a country you can be proud of, become a citizen, join its culture, and defend it when it is threatened. Don't go live somewhere or get citizenship just because it's convenient.
    • benj111 5mo ago
      We don't. But nationalism is out of fashion, there's an expectation that you can move to a different country for work etc. I agree with you, and I think a lot of the west's issues with immigration stem from not demanding this of immigrants past and present. But the left isn't engaging with this conversation, and the right are just making hay with the fact that 'immigration isn't working'. So yes I agree, but that isn't the conversation anyone else is having.
• randomNumber7 6mo ago
  I think it's misleading to credit what is happening in germany to feminism. It's a very toxic ideology and the best thing is to leave if you are discriminated by this (e.g. as young white heterosexual male).
  • AlexeyBelov 6mo ago
    It's not a toxic ideology at all. Sounds like you're misinformed by the social media. You should read a couple of books or see talks, or anything apart from Youtube comment section, really.
    • sph 6mo ago
      Whatever passes for feminism these days is toxic and a far cry from the idealism and drive for equality that borne it. These days it’s only social-media driven culture war of hateful men that blame all the problems of the world to women vs hateful women that blame all the problems of the world to men. The way out is not “manosphere” or “feminism” but understand that 1) we are different despite the claims to the contrary and 2) all are deserving of respect and we need both to have a healthy society. We won’t get there with DEI initiatives, female quotas and remaking movies with a ‘diverse’ cast, that’s just posturing and stoking the growing fires of culture war to the benefit of social media operators.
• guerrilla 6mo ago
  > Nordic countries don't seem to have this problem, but their conscription laws are quite relaxed compared to what the future will likely hold. This seems very misinformed at least when it comes to Sweden. Upon war, everyone is obliged to defend the country. Nobody can leave unless you have a good reason.