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I worked on a core Spring Boot project for five or six years at a very large enterprise. In my opinion, the most dangerous thing about this framework is that it

by e7h4nz 6mo ago

I worked on a core Spring Boot project for five or six years at a very large enterprise. In my opinion, the most dangerous thing about this framework is that it makes its core users feel far too self-assured. When looking at problems, your mind becomes consumed with how to force everything into design patterns—like architectural separation, DI, or interface / implementation split. This causes developers to lose sight of the actual essence of the problem because they are obsessed with conforming to the framework. Because the ecosystem and toolchain surrounding Spring Boot and Java are so mature and well-supported, it is very easy to find community tools that make you feel like you are doing things the "right way." I only realized these issues after I left Spring Boot and Java development behind. Now, I much prefer using TypeScript or Python to write code (for example, web servers). I also prefer using various SaaS solutions to handle authentication and user registration rather than rebuilding it all myself with Spring Boot Security. I honestly never want to go back to the days of writing Java again.

ecshafer 6mo ago
I like Java fine. I would probably prefer Ruby, Rust or LISP given the chance. But I can't disagree with anything you say. So many Java enterprise shops have absurd inheritance and "design pattern" abuse that makes it harder to actually work with the code, and slows things down.
- e7h4nz 6mo ago
  [dead]
- tracker1 6mo ago
  Similar for C# in practice... I actually really like a lot of modern C#, though I use FastEndpoints as an (imo) upgrade to minimal API surface, generally with Dapper and as few layers as possible in a feature oriented structure (single project as long as possible). I had to split off some logic into a separate shared library and worker service app from the api app on the server. Client is a React SPA.
cogman10 6mo ago
Spring is such a massive framework and it definitely has parts that aren't, frankly, well done. More than once Spring has ultimately been the source of performance issues for us with the solution being to ditch spring and do things with just the JDK. A lot of those cases have been fixed, however, even in the best case spring will take something that could have been a single function call and turn it into a maze of 20 different function calls because it's handling all sorts of weird edge and corner cases that aren't applicable to your code. It also doesn't help that some things are simply bolted in which makes it even harder to understand what is going on under the covers. It also doesn't help that it's really easy to end up bringing in the entire framework for what you assumed were single function portions of the framework. That said, it's the framework you probably want to use if you are doing Java. Just not if you are doing fast java.
antonymoose 6mo ago
Funny how that works - I started with Spring both before and after Boot as well as some Scala. I wouldn’t trade Java / Spring for the world. It forces a coherence, perhaps not perfectly, but it provides guidelines to follow. I’ve been stuck in Node / TypeScript / Microservice hell for most of the last 15 years and I couldn’t hate it more. The open-source ecosystem is extremely lacking, even now, on something like a good XML library. I think we’ve got four different ones installed in our core platform each handling different needs (traversal, generation, manipulation, validation). On top of it all, since there isn’t “one way” we’ve got several dozen micro services. There isn’t a single bit of consistency other than “Express.” Logging, authentication, routing, validation - it’s all completely up in the air. It robs us all of efficiency from the lack of common language and pattern. We spend more time refreshing ourselves on any given project than doing feature work or bug fixes. Madness!
- e7h4nz 6mo ago
  Removed microservices and RPC, keep all TypeScript codes in a single monorepo. Avoiding `any` and using ts-rest automatically keep types synchronized between the web and frontend applications. This has made my life much easier.
- ekropotin 6mo ago
  I’ve Been stuck with Spring for many years too and I think it’s just awful choice for micro services that need to scale, simply due to startup time. Not to defend Nodejs ecosystem - your points are 100% valid. With that in mind, I think Go is much better option.
  - ivan_gammel 6mo ago
    Spring may be a bad choice for microservices (context required, because it is not true in general), but it is strange to compare it (DI framework/mvc/orm abstraction etc) with Go (programming language). Java exists in many flavors, you do not have to use Spring to build a performant microservice.
    - 6mo ago
chasd00 6mo ago
> I also prefer using various SaaS solutions to handle authentication and user registration rather than rebuilding it all myself with Spring Boot Security. i haven't used Spring in a decade but even back then Spring Security had support for all kinds of federated authentication/authorization providers and standards.
smrtinsert 6mo ago
Nothing about Spring forces you to use or engage in or use design patterns. If it does im pretty sure that's a plus. Juniors can have clear path towards being productive and feel quickly oriented. Like sibling comment mentioned you can integrate anything with Spring Boot. Its a high productivity framework to accomplish alot. Your frustrations speak more to the job you took rather than the framework they forced you to use.
microflash 6mo ago
> I also prefer using various SaaS solutions to handle authentication and user registration rather than rebuilding it all myself with Spring Boot Security. I'm confused. Spring Security does provide you ways to create your own auth layer. However, you can use your existing identity provider or any external provider (there are starters for many providers).
amarant 6mo ago
Java is fine, but spring boot is an abomination. Give micronaut a go and see for yourself!

by e7h4nz 6mo ago

ecshafer 6mo ago

I like Java fine. I would probably prefer Ruby, Rust or LISP given the chance. But I can't disagree with anything you say. So many Java enterprise shops have absurd inheritance and "design pattern" abuse that makes it harder to actually work with the code, and slows things down.

e7h4nz 6mo ago
[dead]
tracker1 6mo ago
Similar for C# in practice... I actually really like a lot of modern C#, though I use FastEndpoints as an (imo) upgrade to minimal API surface, generally with Dapper and as few layers as possible in a feature oriented structure (single project as long as possible). I had to split off some logic into a separate shared library and worker service app from the api app on the server. Client is a React SPA.

cogman10 6mo ago

Spring is such a massive framework and it definitely has parts that aren't, frankly, well done. More than once Spring has ultimately been the source of performance issues for us with the solution being to ditch spring and do things with just the JDK. A lot of those cases have been fixed, however, even in the best case spring will take something that could have been a single function call and turn it into a maze of 20 different function calls because it's handling all sorts of weird edge and corner cases that aren't applicable to your code. It also doesn't help that some things are simply bolted in which makes it even harder to understand what is going on under the covers. It also doesn't help that it's really easy to end up bringing in the entire framework for what you assumed were single function portions of the framework. That said, it's the framework you probably want to use if you are doing Java. Just not if you are doing fast java.

antonymoose 6mo ago

Funny how that works - I started with Spring both before and after Boot as well as some Scala. I wouldn’t trade Java / Spring for the world. It forces a coherence, perhaps not perfectly, but it provides guidelines to follow. I’ve been stuck in Node / TypeScript / Microservice hell for most of the last 15 years and I couldn’t hate it more. The open-source ecosystem is extremely lacking, even now, on something like a good XML library. I think we’ve got four different ones installed in our core platform each handling different needs (traversal, generation, manipulation, validation). On top of it all, since there isn’t “one way” we’ve got several dozen micro services. There isn’t a single bit of consistency other than “Express.” Logging, authentication, routing, validation - it’s all completely up in the air. It robs us all of efficiency from the lack of common language and pattern. We spend more time refreshing ourselves on any given project than doing feature work or bug fixes. Madness!

e7h4nz 6mo ago
Removed microservices and RPC, keep all TypeScript codes in a single monorepo. Avoiding `any` and using ts-rest automatically keep types synchronized between the web and frontend applications. This has made my life much easier.
ekropotin 6mo ago
I’ve Been stuck with Spring for many years too and I think it’s just awful choice for micro services that need to scale, simply due to startup time. Not to defend Nodejs ecosystem - your points are 100% valid. With that in mind, I think Go is much better option.
- ivan_gammel 6mo ago
  Spring may be a bad choice for microservices (context required, because it is not true in general), but it is strange to compare it (DI framework/mvc/orm abstraction etc) with Go (programming language). Java exists in many flavors, you do not have to use Spring to build a performant microservice.
  - 6mo ago

chasd00 6mo ago

> I also prefer using various SaaS solutions to handle authentication and user registration rather than rebuilding it all myself with Spring Boot Security. i haven't used Spring in a decade but even back then Spring Security had support for all kinds of federated authentication/authorization providers and standards.

smrtinsert 6mo ago

Nothing about Spring forces you to use or engage in or use design patterns. If it does im pretty sure that's a plus. Juniors can have clear path towards being productive and feel quickly oriented. Like sibling comment mentioned you can integrate anything with Spring Boot. Its a high productivity framework to accomplish alot. Your frustrations speak more to the job you took rather than the framework they forced you to use.

microflash 6mo ago

> I also prefer using various SaaS solutions to handle authentication and user registration rather than rebuilding it all myself with Spring Boot Security. I'm confused. Spring Security does provide you ways to create your own auth layer. However, you can use your existing identity provider or any external provider (there are starters for many providers).

amarant 6mo ago

Java is fine, but spring boot is an abomination. Give micronaut a go and see for yourself!