14 ms·

The Neo cannot scale with macOS behind on the basics

71 points by pholbrook 6mo ago

pholbrook 6mo ago
The author says: "This is my detailed criticism of macOS (in market context of the Neo), and the many paper cuts Apple needs to fix to catch up."
PaulHoule 6mo ago
I remember circa 2017 working for startups and traveling a lot. Most of the people were using macs but I had an Alienware because that way I could have a real GPU and train neural nets locally. Back then a mac worked much better with the docks I could find and monitors that had a dock plugged in. It was close to instant and "just works" on the Mac whereas the Windows computer would take 45 seconds to enumerate the dock every time. The other day we had a power failure that caused my home server which normally runs headless to go down and stay down. Right next to that server is a Mac with a Studio display which has no ordinary ports like HDMI, DVI, VGA, DisplayPort, whatever. I had to take the server upstairs and plug it into a old cheap monitor I had there and it turned out that somehow the *-extras package didn't get installed by Ubuntu and I had no network card drivers. Not hard to fix, but another illustration of how Apple products often are just a little less useful and valuable than they could be.
- thebruce87m 6mo ago
  I’ve had that exact thing happen in Ubuntu too. Needed a usb Ethernet dongle to get it working again.
- kdkcjsjdns 6mo ago
  [dead]
- deleted 6mo ago
  [deleted]
- skunkworker 6mo ago
  When Apple still had intel chips, I remember how long it used to take for external displays to be properly detected and to start working. The first time I used a M series chip, suddenly the displays were detected and started working in a second or two. I had assumed that that’s how long it always had to take, when in reality it could an order of magnitude quicker, and on a thunderbolt dock.
- e40 6mo ago
  Why does Apple get shade here??
  - PaulHoule 6mo ago
    Well... I think Apple's monitors are a clear expression of the dark side of the brand. I mean, fanbois have rewarded them for something that doesn't really deserve reward. I mean, a few people can afford to pay 3x what a monitor is worth for a monitor which only works with one brand of computer. [1] I think it led to the AVP product failure because "of course people are going to spend $3000 so they can be the lonely guy watching a movie and popping popcorn all alone". Had Apple customers given them some discipline (like "I could buy three monitors for that price") they might have made the AVP compatible with immersive games or tried to pack them in with seats of Dassault 3DExperience or something better than that. See Clayton Christensen's idea of "disruptive innovation" which blames the customers of firms for being uninterested in new and appropriate technology. Since his work got famous we've seen an epidemic of companies like Microsoft that, from the viewpoint of customers, look like they are high on drugs, because they're afraid their current customers will keep them stuck in the past. [1] to be fair I have a lot of computers, including weird SBCs, it's a regular occurrence that I need to plug something into a monitor, any monitor, for a few hours.
    - ethansinjin 6mo ago
      I don’t think your original comment made it clear it was an Apple monitor
quietsegfault 6mo ago
Wow, this is the first time I've read someone who actually says that Windows is ... better ... than MacOS. Wow.
- mikestew 6mo ago
  I don’t think TFA said Windows is better overall, but c’mon, even a diehard Mac user like myself can see how stagnated, say, task/app switching is on macOS in comparison to Windows. And things like Mission Control always seemed like a “we’ll come back and polish that up later” feature, but they never did come back to it.
  - nomel 6mo ago
    Hyperswitch and Hyperdock solved the problems for me. Couldn't live without actual alt-tab behavior or window previews.
  - commandersaki 6mo ago
    I use cmd-tab/cmd-` on macos, and alt-tab on windows. I feel they're mostly equivalent, not sure what's wrong with task switching. The real issue is finding the right window/tab I want in my browser, but searching tabs is now a thing and works for me pretty much everytime.
  - stevenkkim 6mo ago
    AltTab works well for me on macOS https://alt-tab-macos.netlify.app/ https://alt-tab-macos.netlify.app/
- x0x0 6mo ago
  I've used macs for pushing 20 years. The external monitor story remains crap. Even on a recent mbp and a $1500 LG 5k ultrawide. Plug it in and the display flickers back and forth. etc. Apple do not care.
  - kdkcjsjdns 6mo ago
    [dead]
tyleo 6mo ago
I agree with the criticisms of modern macOS. However, let’s not forget their competitor is Windows. So even if they aren’t going great, it’s not like they have stiff competiton. Thats before even getting into hardware where Microsoft is even further behind. It’s unfortunate that it’s so hard to disrupt this space.
- wvbdmp 6mo ago
  On the contrary, it’s unfortunate that this space can’t just be an island of stability, where things keep working the way they always have and new features are added unobtrusively. Instead we get surface-level change for the sake of change as well as slop and surveillance nobody asked for, and are still missing conveniences that have been table-stakes on mobile for years. It would be a a step in the right direction if Windows would simply stop disrupting itself.
  - JumpCrisscross 6mo ago
    > it’s unfortunate that this space can’t just be an island of stability, where things keep working the way they always have and new features are added unobtrusively There are plenty of Linux operating systems that prize stability over feature richness. They work fine if that's your workflow. Most folks' workflows, unfortunately, are not that.
    - coldtea 6mo ago
      >There are plenty of Linux operating systems that prize stability over feature richness. It's a choice between arbitrary changes and constant redesigns every 4-5 years, versus bare-bones distros and DEs. The parent asks for a third option: well featured, mature, distros that don't change for the sake of it, but still have the features.
      - JumpCrisscross 6mo ago
        > well featured, mature, distros that don't change for the sake of it, but still have the features I’m arguing this niche barely exists. Folks who want to run modern software tend to want something that “looks” modern.
NoPicklez 6mo ago
I've been using a Macbook as my personal laptop since 2008 when they introduced the first aluminum chassis and still these things the author raises are still little quirks I wish Mac would resolve.
dwaite 6mo ago
This seems like a vehicle for complaining about a pet list of missing macOS features rather than actually being commentary about the Neo. For instance, they are arguing that Apple is pushing users toward a Thunderbolt dock - on a computer without Thunderbolt.
- karlgkk 6mo ago
  The MacBook neo is a great Mac for anyone who is fine with the built in apps, and doesn’t know what a gigabyte is. In a refresh or two when they up it to the next a-series pro chip and 12GB ram, it’s going to be an unambiguous deal.
  - cultofmetatron 6mo ago
    >In a refresh or two when they up it to the next a-series pro chip and 12GB ram, it’s going to be an unambiguous deal no kidding, when that soc is on the top sellign iphone AND top selling macbook. economies of scale is the 9th wonder of the world
- chocochunks 6mo ago
  It's a bit of a silly point now since the Neo only supports one external display anyways* but if they do support 2 or more displays it will be a problem. Even if they add TB support when they do, unless the prices of TB docks drop dramatically they'll have the same problem. * Earlier mobile phone SoC in a laptop devices from Qualcomm still supported two or more external displays!
- bzzzt 6mo ago
  While I agree the missing MST support complaint is valid it seems very far fetched to me it's a deal breaker preventing Mac adoption. Most people only use 1 screen, a fraction of people dual screen (especially laptop users) and only a tiny fraction have or really need more screens.
cultofmetatron 6mo ago
most of my nonengineer friends are using laptops that are built like junk and falling apart with dismal performance. a $600 mac thats easy to repair and does the basics is such an easy recommendation for so many of them
_fw 6mo ago
It’s interesting to see the big about Virtual Desktops being surpassed by Windows here. I still can’t get thumbnail previews of my Virtual Desktops at the top of my screen. I see the desktops but they’re blank. And missing that context is tricky when you have four of them (:
cpt_sobel 6mo ago
Have mostly had the same complaints with MacOS since the beginning. Also something I'd like to see mentioned is the refusal to add a tiny X on the corners of windows in the Mission Control view, and the only workaround I've found is some 8$ app on AppStore. Still can't believe how much better it felt to log in to KDE (admittedly not my favorite) on my Steam Deck when I had to configure something and got to use the file manager. It just let me... do stuff that MacOS wants to hide from me. Cmd-shift-. to show hidden files, seriously? Cmd-shift-G to go to a path?! I've been using MacOS exclusively for 5 years now and had forgotten how much I like working on linux - I definitely haven't forgotten how much I dislike Windows though...
bhouston 6mo ago
I think this is fundamentally misdiagnosing why Macs haven’t dominated. It is actually not about the monitor support but about: - government and corporate bulk contracts ?and this is usually a result of software only working on Windows.) - expensive (thus affecting for most home users and also corporate bulk buyers who can not tell the difference.) - lack of high end game support That is why it doesn’t have more market share. You are thinking too much about minor technical issues.
pjmlp 6mo ago
That is to be expected, but lets not distract all those Apple outlets how Apple is going to take down the 80% market share of Windows with Neo.
sharts 6mo ago
I run Windows in a VM when I really need a file manager. Because explorer is that much better, sadly, with saner look and feel.
- Shorel 6mo ago
  I run DoubleCommander when I really need a file manager :)
coldtea 6mo ago
None of those will prevent Neo to scaling to record sales
productgal93 6mo ago
[dead]

71 points by pholbrook 6mo ago

The author says: "This is my detailed criticism of macOS (in market context of the Neo), and the many paper cuts Apple needs to fix to catch up."

PaulHoule 6mo ago

I remember circa 2017 working for startups and traveling a lot. Most of the people were using macs but I had an Alienware because that way I could have a real GPU and train neural nets locally. Back then a mac worked much better with the docks I could find and monitors that had a dock plugged in. It was close to instant and "just works" on the Mac whereas the Windows computer would take 45 seconds to enumerate the dock every time. The other day we had a power failure that caused my home server which normally runs headless to go down and stay down. Right next to that server is a Mac with a Studio display which has no ordinary ports like HDMI, DVI, VGA, DisplayPort, whatever. I had to take the server upstairs and plug it into a old cheap monitor I had there and it turned out that somehow the *-extras package didn't get installed by Ubuntu and I had no network card drivers. Not hard to fix, but another illustration of how Apple products often are just a little less useful and valuable than they could be.

thebruce87m 6mo ago
I’ve had that exact thing happen in Ubuntu too. Needed a usb Ethernet dongle to get it working again.
kdkcjsjdns 6mo ago
[dead]
deleted 6mo ago
[deleted]
skunkworker 6mo ago
When Apple still had intel chips, I remember how long it used to take for external displays to be properly detected and to start working. The first time I used a M series chip, suddenly the displays were detected and started working in a second or two. I had assumed that that’s how long it always had to take, when in reality it could an order of magnitude quicker, and on a thunderbolt dock.
e40 6mo ago
Why does Apple get shade here??
- PaulHoule 6mo ago
  Well... I think Apple's monitors are a clear expression of the dark side of the brand. I mean, fanbois have rewarded them for something that doesn't really deserve reward. I mean, a few people can afford to pay 3x what a monitor is worth for a monitor which only works with one brand of computer. [1] I think it led to the AVP product failure because "of course people are going to spend $3000 so they can be the lonely guy watching a movie and popping popcorn all alone". Had Apple customers given them some discipline (like "I could buy three monitors for that price") they might have made the AVP compatible with immersive games or tried to pack them in with seats of Dassault 3DExperience or something better than that. See Clayton Christensen's idea of "disruptive innovation" which blames the customers of firms for being uninterested in new and appropriate technology. Since his work got famous we've seen an epidemic of companies like Microsoft that, from the viewpoint of customers, look like they are high on drugs, because they're afraid their current customers will keep them stuck in the past. [1] to be fair I have a lot of computers, including weird SBCs, it's a regular occurrence that I need to plug something into a monitor, any monitor, for a few hours.
  - ethansinjin 6mo ago
    I don’t think your original comment made it clear it was an Apple monitor

quietsegfault 6mo ago

Wow, this is the first time I've read someone who actually says that Windows is ... better ... than MacOS. Wow.

mikestew 6mo ago
I don’t think TFA said Windows is better overall, but c’mon, even a diehard Mac user like myself can see how stagnated, say, task/app switching is on macOS in comparison to Windows. And things like Mission Control always seemed like a “we’ll come back and polish that up later” feature, but they never did come back to it.
- nomel 6mo ago
  Hyperswitch and Hyperdock solved the problems for me. Couldn't live without actual alt-tab behavior or window previews.
- commandersaki 6mo ago
  I use cmd-tab/cmd-` on macos, and alt-tab on windows. I feel they're mostly equivalent, not sure what's wrong with task switching. The real issue is finding the right window/tab I want in my browser, but searching tabs is now a thing and works for me pretty much everytime.
- stevenkkim 6mo ago
  AltTab works well for me on macOS https://alt-tab-macos.netlify.app/ https://alt-tab-macos.netlify.app/
x0x0 6mo ago
I've used macs for pushing 20 years. The external monitor story remains crap. Even on a recent mbp and a $1500 LG 5k ultrawide. Plug it in and the display flickers back and forth. etc. Apple do not care.
- kdkcjsjdns 6mo ago
  [dead]

tyleo 6mo ago

I agree with the criticisms of modern macOS. However, let’s not forget their competitor is Windows. So even if they aren’t going great, it’s not like they have stiff competiton. Thats before even getting into hardware where Microsoft is even further behind. It’s unfortunate that it’s so hard to disrupt this space.

wvbdmp 6mo ago
On the contrary, it’s unfortunate that this space can’t just be an island of stability, where things keep working the way they always have and new features are added unobtrusively. Instead we get surface-level change for the sake of change as well as slop and surveillance nobody asked for, and are still missing conveniences that have been table-stakes on mobile for years. It would be a a step in the right direction if Windows would simply stop disrupting itself.
- JumpCrisscross 6mo ago
  > it’s unfortunate that this space can’t just be an island of stability, where things keep working the way they always have and new features are added unobtrusively There are plenty of Linux operating systems that prize stability over feature richness. They work fine if that's your workflow. Most folks' workflows, unfortunately, are not that.
  - coldtea 6mo ago
    >There are plenty of Linux operating systems that prize stability over feature richness. It's a choice between arbitrary changes and constant redesigns every 4-5 years, versus bare-bones distros and DEs. The parent asks for a third option: well featured, mature, distros that don't change for the sake of it, but still have the features.
    - JumpCrisscross 6mo ago
      > well featured, mature, distros that don't change for the sake of it, but still have the features I’m arguing this niche barely exists. Folks who want to run modern software tend to want something that “looks” modern.

NoPicklez 6mo ago

I've been using a Macbook as my personal laptop since 2008 when they introduced the first aluminum chassis and still these things the author raises are still little quirks I wish Mac would resolve.

dwaite 6mo ago

This seems like a vehicle for complaining about a pet list of missing macOS features rather than actually being commentary about the Neo. For instance, they are arguing that Apple is pushing users toward a Thunderbolt dock - on a computer without Thunderbolt.

karlgkk 6mo ago
The MacBook neo is a great Mac for anyone who is fine with the built in apps, and doesn’t know what a gigabyte is. In a refresh or two when they up it to the next a-series pro chip and 12GB ram, it’s going to be an unambiguous deal.
- cultofmetatron 6mo ago
  >In a refresh or two when they up it to the next a-series pro chip and 12GB ram, it’s going to be an unambiguous deal no kidding, when that soc is on the top sellign iphone AND top selling macbook. economies of scale is the 9th wonder of the world
chocochunks 6mo ago
It's a bit of a silly point now since the Neo only supports one external display anyways* but if they do support 2 or more displays it will be a problem. Even if they add TB support when they do, unless the prices of TB docks drop dramatically they'll have the same problem. * Earlier mobile phone SoC in a laptop devices from Qualcomm still supported two or more external displays!
bzzzt 6mo ago
While I agree the missing MST support complaint is valid it seems very far fetched to me it's a deal breaker preventing Mac adoption. Most people only use 1 screen, a fraction of people dual screen (especially laptop users) and only a tiny fraction have or really need more screens.

cultofmetatron 6mo ago

most of my nonengineer friends are using laptops that are built like junk and falling apart with dismal performance. a $600 mac thats easy to repair and does the basics is such an easy recommendation for so many of them

_fw 6mo ago

It’s interesting to see the big about Virtual Desktops being surpassed by Windows here. I still can’t get thumbnail previews of my Virtual Desktops at the top of my screen. I see the desktops but they’re blank. And missing that context is tricky when you have four of them (:

cpt_sobel 6mo ago

Have mostly had the same complaints with MacOS since the beginning. Also something I'd like to see mentioned is the refusal to add a tiny X on the corners of windows in the Mission Control view, and the only workaround I've found is some 8$ app on AppStore. Still can't believe how much better it felt to log in to KDE (admittedly not my favorite) on my Steam Deck when I had to configure something and got to use the file manager. It just let me... do stuff that MacOS wants to hide from me. Cmd-shift-. to show hidden files, seriously? Cmd-shift-G to go to a path?! I've been using MacOS exclusively for 5 years now and had forgotten how much I like working on linux - I definitely haven't forgotten how much I dislike Windows though...

bhouston 6mo ago

I think this is fundamentally misdiagnosing why Macs haven’t dominated. It is actually not about the monitor support but about: - government and corporate bulk contracts ?and this is usually a result of software only working on Windows.) - expensive (thus affecting for most home users and also corporate bulk buyers who can not tell the difference.) - lack of high end game support That is why it doesn’t have more market share. You are thinking too much about minor technical issues.

pjmlp 6mo ago

That is to be expected, but lets not distract all those Apple outlets how Apple is going to take down the 80% market share of Windows with Neo.

sharts 6mo ago

I run Windows in a VM when I really need a file manager. Because explorer is that much better, sadly, with saner look and feel.

Shorel 6mo ago
I run DoubleCommander when I really need a file manager :)

coldtea 6mo ago

None of those will prevent Neo to scaling to record sales

productgal93 6mo ago

[dead]