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When one gets in the weeds on EVs or ICE cars two things become shockingly clear: internal combustion is hilariously inefficient YET gasoline is hilariously ene

When one gets in the weeds on EVs or ICE cars two things become shockingly clear: internal combustion is hilariously inefficient YET gasoline is hilariously energy dense. Most people's intuition is wrong on both of these points but then they cancel each other out. Edit: another important point is that the "cost" to acquire gasoline is only the very end of the process. The energy has already been gathered, stored, and most of the processing is complete. Our cost (in money and energy) to "make" gasoline is really just gathering it. This is why the comparison to renewables is often a hard sell, it's just apples to oranges. Gasoline started on third base, renewables are batting from the plate. Some of the internal combustion enthusiasts are holding up e-fuels or synthetic fuels as the solution but then we have to pay for the entire energy gathering and processing pipeline and still be using a conversion method that's not at all efficient. It's the worst of both worlds.

frankus 7mo ago
Every single ICE car driving down the highway is throwing away enough waste heat to heat a small apartment building on a freezing cold day.
- OldSchool 7mo ago
  IF the joules of energy in your EV battery came from gas-fired or coal-powered generation, a similar amount (~60%) was simply dumped somewhere else.
  - frankus 7mo ago
    I wish we did more e.g. district heating with that waste heat in the US.
    - antisthenes 7mo ago
      That means relatively dirty combustion near where people live. The population density around fossil fuel power plants tends to be pretty low in wealthy countries. You can't pump hot water the same distance you can transmit electricity on HVDC towers.
Terr_ 7mo ago
The tyranny if the rocket/horse equation: You need energy to carry the energy you need to move. There's a good reason so many sprawling civilizations of the past involve leveraging wind-power for transport.
dylan604 7mo ago
Train locomotives have used diesel powered generators that then powers electric motors. Would this be less efficient than battery powered EVs? Or better asked, what would be the most efficient use of gasoline?
- jfengel 7mo ago
  When it comes to the environment the most efficient use is to leave it in the ground. Hybrids work for trains because they are so large and don't need big swings of acceleration or to climb steep grades. They can run the diesel generators at maximum efficiency. Battery power would be better, because you can build even larger power plants running at higher heats and not have to haul them with you, but the costs of sufficient battery is too large, so far. That is changing.
  - einpoklum 7mo ago
    Isn't it better for trains to just to draw from the electric grid?
    - csours 7mo ago
      Do you have to run new electric transmission lines? Will you have to maintain those power lines?
      - mrguyorama 7mo ago
        We once dammed basically every river in the nation because it was in vogue at the time. Maybe building overhead power lines for rail infrastructure should be the "hip" thing right now instead of AI. Maybe building oodles of solar power farms and batteries should be "hip" We built electrical infrastructure to the most remote residences just because we could and because it was an investment in our people. We directly funded our massive and formerly world class rail network because we could, and because it would pay off. We built a world class road network half as a make-work project, and it still pays dividends. We purchased Alaska, with no obvious reason. We built a space program to have slightly better nuclear weapons, and it's part of the reason we were so dominant in computer chips for so long. We have spent something like 40 trillion dollars over the past 25 years, and almost none of it on anything of real value. More than a little of that debt is just handouts to already rich people. We can build new electric transmission lines and I'm so tired of things that we absolutely 100% can do if we just demand it be done being somehow treated as a problem. America can afford infrastructure.
groundzeros2015 7mo ago
Exactly. The environmental/social burden isn’t just the energy used in the raw physical form, but the cost to acquire and make it useable. The problem with gas is not that burning it doesn’t maximally capture all energy, but that there are externalities to doing so.
oceanplexian 7mo ago
> internal combustion is hilariously inefficient It's inefficient but not hilariously so. Modern ICE are quite amazing technology. Combined gas turbines (you know, the energy source that powers your electric car) are about 60% efficient for the really good ones, minus 5-7% transmission losses, minus 10-12% charging losses, minus 20% loss in cold climates, lands you at around 35-40% efficiency from fuel source to the wheel. The Atkinson-cycle engine in the Toyota Prius gets around 40% give or take some losses in the drivetrain. Electric have plenty of upsides, but for some people with cheap gas+high electric costs+cold climate you would honestly be better driving a hybrid.
- noosphr 7mo ago
  This is something that always gets lost in these conversations. Whenever you do the real world calculation for what an electric cars CO2 profile looks like it turns out to be the same as a gasoline car unless your country is majority nuclear.
  - sitharus 7mo ago
    Or majority renewable.
  - ramidarigaz 7mo ago
    > Whenever you do the real world calculation for what an electric cars CO2 profile looks like it turns out to be the same as a gasoline car unless your country is majority nuclear. Not at all true: https://www.carboncounter.com/ https://www.carboncounter.com/ US-specific but you can even pick a state and it will use the generation mix of that state
    - noosphr 7mo ago
      You charge your car at night. At night the sun doesn't shine. The mix is mostly coal or if you're lucky mostly gas. This is the type of bullshit I mean by doing real world calculations.
      - 7mo ago

frankus 7mo ago

Every single ICE car driving down the highway is throwing away enough waste heat to heat a small apartment building on a freezing cold day.

OldSchool 7mo ago
IF the joules of energy in your EV battery came from gas-fired or coal-powered generation, a similar amount (~60%) was simply dumped somewhere else.
- frankus 7mo ago
  I wish we did more e.g. district heating with that waste heat in the US.
  - antisthenes 7mo ago
    That means relatively dirty combustion near where people live. The population density around fossil fuel power plants tends to be pretty low in wealthy countries. You can't pump hot water the same distance you can transmit electricity on HVDC towers.

Terr_ 7mo ago

The tyranny if the rocket/horse equation: You need energy to carry the energy you need to move. There's a good reason so many sprawling civilizations of the past involve leveraging wind-power for transport.

dylan604 7mo ago

Train locomotives have used diesel powered generators that then powers electric motors. Would this be less efficient than battery powered EVs? Or better asked, what would be the most efficient use of gasoline?

jfengel 7mo ago
When it comes to the environment the most efficient use is to leave it in the ground. Hybrids work for trains because they are so large and don't need big swings of acceleration or to climb steep grades. They can run the diesel generators at maximum efficiency. Battery power would be better, because you can build even larger power plants running at higher heats and not have to haul them with you, but the costs of sufficient battery is too large, so far. That is changing.
- einpoklum 7mo ago
  Isn't it better for trains to just to draw from the electric grid?
  - csours 7mo ago
    Do you have to run new electric transmission lines? Will you have to maintain those power lines?
    - mrguyorama 7mo ago
      We once dammed basically every river in the nation because it was in vogue at the time. Maybe building overhead power lines for rail infrastructure should be the "hip" thing right now instead of AI. Maybe building oodles of solar power farms and batteries should be "hip" We built electrical infrastructure to the most remote residences just because we could and because it was an investment in our people. We directly funded our massive and formerly world class rail network because we could, and because it would pay off. We built a world class road network half as a make-work project, and it still pays dividends. We purchased Alaska, with no obvious reason. We built a space program to have slightly better nuclear weapons, and it's part of the reason we were so dominant in computer chips for so long. We have spent something like 40 trillion dollars over the past 25 years, and almost none of it on anything of real value. More than a little of that debt is just handouts to already rich people. We can build new electric transmission lines and I'm so tired of things that we absolutely 100% can do if we just demand it be done being somehow treated as a problem. America can afford infrastructure.

groundzeros2015 7mo ago

Exactly. The environmental/social burden isn’t just the energy used in the raw physical form, but the cost to acquire and make it useable. The problem with gas is not that burning it doesn’t maximally capture all energy, but that there are externalities to doing so.

oceanplexian 7mo ago

> internal combustion is hilariously inefficient It's inefficient but not hilariously so. Modern ICE are quite amazing technology. Combined gas turbines (you know, the energy source that powers your electric car) are about 60% efficient for the really good ones, minus 5-7% transmission losses, minus 10-12% charging losses, minus 20% loss in cold climates, lands you at around 35-40% efficiency from fuel source to the wheel. The Atkinson-cycle engine in the Toyota Prius gets around 40% give or take some losses in the drivetrain. Electric have plenty of upsides, but for some people with cheap gas+high electric costs+cold climate you would honestly be better driving a hybrid.

noosphr 7mo ago
This is something that always gets lost in these conversations. Whenever you do the real world calculation for what an electric cars CO2 profile looks like it turns out to be the same as a gasoline car unless your country is majority nuclear.
- sitharus 7mo ago
  Or majority renewable.
- ramidarigaz 7mo ago
  > Whenever you do the real world calculation for what an electric cars CO2 profile looks like it turns out to be the same as a gasoline car unless your country is majority nuclear. Not at all true: https://www.carboncounter.com/ https://www.carboncounter.com/ US-specific but you can even pick a state and it will use the generation mix of that state
  - noosphr 7mo ago
    You charge your car at night. At night the sun doesn't shine. The mix is mostly coal or if you're lucky mostly gas. This is the type of bullshit I mean by doing real world calculations.
    - 7mo ago