5 ms·

why do they call it a vaccine, its nothing like that... there's probably a reason evolution didnt put the immune system on permanent "amber alert" as they call

why do they call it a vaccine, its nothing like that... there's probably a reason evolution didnt put the immune system on permanent "amber alert" as they call it in the article

kojacklives 7mo ago
True though there is the theory that it was unnecessary for the immune system to regulate itself in some ways because we were full of parasites.
Angostura 7mo ago
> The research team in the US does not think the immune system should be permanently dialled up and think such a vaccine should be used to compliment rather than replace current vaccines
Larrikin 7mo ago
Are you wildly speculating or do you have a source with research backing up your claim evolution got it perfectly right? I personally look forward to every innovation that potentially improves our baseline.
- rozal 7mo ago
  [dead]
- aaa_aaa 7mo ago
  I bet my money on the immune system any day.
  - thomquaid 7mo ago
    Hard to beat a half million years of evolution with a nasal spray from last year.
  - javascriptfan69 7mo ago
    You don't have to bet money on it. You can just stop taking antibiotics and vaccines. Those are way more interesting odds.
    - wizzwizz4 7mo ago
      (Most) vaccines work by letting your immune system know to watch out for particular things. That's an information advantage. Likewise, antibiotics are chemical agents that the body lacks the genes to synthesise. Betting that the immune system's parameters are generally well-calibrated is entirely compatible with taking antibiotics and vaccines, where indicated. You wouldn't want to get vaccinated for smallpox in the middle of a plague epidemic, because that would waste your immune system's resources on an extinct-in-the-wild disease, when it really needs to be gearing up to stop the plague killing you.
      - XorNot 7mo ago
        The immune system does not expend resources on vaccines. You do not somehow go into deficit by getting a vaccine.
        wizzwizz4 7mo ago
        The immune system does expend resources on vaccines: it makes antibodies, usually has some kind of inflammatory response…. But if a vaccine causes a nutritional deficiency, there's something seriously wrong with your diet.
        XorNot 7mo ago
        This is like saying that balancing while walking expends resources. Yes it's technically true, but it is also how walking functions regardless of circumstance.
- dekhn 7mo ago
  They didn't claim evolution got it perfectly right. They speculated that immune systems evolved to avoid being continuously on alert. And that's exactly right- our immune systems have an extremely complicated system for detecting foreign invaders that is tightly regulated. And a failure to regulate that is often associated with autoimmune disorders, which remain very poorly understood. I've studied biology from the perspective of engineering better drugs for decades now and I can say with confidence that I simply don't understand how the immune system works, and I don't think anybody else really does either (compared to, say, the heart, or many biological systems like protein production). We have identified many players, and observed a great deal of actions, and have speculative models for many of the underlying processes, but we don't really have an "understanding" of the immune system. I skimmed this paper and frankly, it has a very long way to go before people are convinced to try this in human clinical trials. I look forward to innovations, but to a first order approximation: evolution found model parameters that exceed the best human science and engineering.
amelius 7mo ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amber_alert https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amber_alert Amber alert means something different than the author thinks ...
- deleted 7mo ago
  [deleted]
- RupertSalt 7mo ago
  Perhaps "Defcon 02" would be better understood?
- kazinator 7mo ago
  They wanted "red alert". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Alert https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Alert This is just an idiom for denoting a high alert state.
  - RupertSalt 7mo ago
    No, "Red Alert" is called when there is an attack imminent, incoming weapons detected, enemies sighted. So a macrophage on "red alert" would be reacting to an active infection or disease.
    - deleted 7mo ago
      [deleted]
    - kazinator 7mo ago
      Sure, and this vaccine goads the macrophage into that state, putting it on "red alert", without there actually being an infection.
      - RupertSalt 7mo ago
        I suppose it is not worth debating a metaphor written by BBC reporters for the general public, without even reading the research. But I was edified to learn that Dr Edward Jenner was a vaccine pioneer even without the honors of knighthood.
renewiltord 7mo ago
One of the things I do worry about is glasses. Is there a reason why we correct vision? There's probably a reason evolution made some of us see the world in a blur. Likewise with therapy - maybe killing yourself is like cell apoptosis. Many body cells are supposed to choose to die when they no longer function well. It's a good thing. That's often the problem with scientists: "They were so preoccupied with whether they could, they didn't stop to think if they should". Until we find out why nature made it so some of us kill ourselves maybe we shouldn't fuck with it? Remember Chesterton's Fence.
- thomquaid 7mo ago
  This isnt a vaccine against suicide.
- lanyard-textile 7mo ago
  Really...?? :) "Sorry son, you can't get these glasses. It's for the betterment of humanity."
  - mikestorrent 7mo ago
    I think you missed their sarcasm
    - lanyard-textile 7mo ago
      ... Yeah probably huh :) You just don't know sometimes.
- krapp 7mo ago
  You're making the mistake of thinking of "nature" and "evolution" as intelligent, reasoning systems, and that every evolutionary adaptation exists for a purpose. Evolution doesn't do things for "reasons," things just happen. Remember that cephalopod brains are donut shaped and their digestive tracts go right through the middle and if they eat something too big they'll have an anyeurism. Pandas and koalas evolved special diets that serve no evolutionary purpose and both would be extinct if humans didn't find them cute. Sloths have to climb down from trees to take a shit. Female hyenas give birth through a pseudopenis that often ruptures and kils them. Horses can't vomit and if they swallow something toxic, their stomach ruptures. Also their hooves and ankles are extremely weak and not well designed to support their weight. Numerous species like the fiddler crab and peacock have evolved sexual displays that are actively harmful to their survival. And as for humans, our spines are not well adapted for walking upright, our retinas are wired backwards, and we still have a useless appendix and wisdom teeth. The recurrent laryngeal nerve has an unnecessarily long and complex route branching off the vagus and travelling around the aorta before running back up to the larynx. Evolution is not smart. Evolution isn't even stupid. It isn't trying to keep you alive and it isn't even capable of caring if you die. Yes we should absolutely fuck with it, because we don't want to live in a world where we still die of sepsis and parasites and plagues because "we don't want to mess with evolution."
giarc 7mo ago
>The effect lasted for around three months in animal experiments. It would just be temporary, but there is likely trade offs.
deleted 7mo ago
[deleted]
mattmaroon 7mo ago
Isn’t Amber alert a missing child? Wouldn’t you say like DEFCON three or something?
- RupertSalt 7mo ago
  This article is from the UK, so it's more like: evacuate the children, Keep Calm and Carry On, but fight them on the beaches.

why do they call it a vaccine, its nothing like that... there's probably a reason evolution didnt put the immune system on permanent "amber alert" as they call it in the article

kojacklives 7mo ago

True though there is the theory that it was unnecessary for the immune system to regulate itself in some ways because we were full of parasites.

Angostura 7mo ago

> The research team in the US does not think the immune system should be permanently dialled up and think such a vaccine should be used to compliment rather than replace current vaccines

Larrikin 7mo ago

Are you wildly speculating or do you have a source with research backing up your claim evolution got it perfectly right? I personally look forward to every innovation that potentially improves our baseline.

rozal 7mo ago
[dead]
aaa_aaa 7mo ago
I bet my money on the immune system any day.
- thomquaid 7mo ago
  Hard to beat a half million years of evolution with a nasal spray from last year.
- javascriptfan69 7mo ago
  You don't have to bet money on it. You can just stop taking antibiotics and vaccines. Those are way more interesting odds.
  - wizzwizz4 7mo ago
    (Most) vaccines work by letting your immune system know to watch out for particular things. That's an information advantage. Likewise, antibiotics are chemical agents that the body lacks the genes to synthesise. Betting that the immune system's parameters are generally well-calibrated is entirely compatible with taking antibiotics and vaccines, where indicated. You wouldn't want to get vaccinated for smallpox in the middle of a plague epidemic, because that would waste your immune system's resources on an extinct-in-the-wild disease, when it really needs to be gearing up to stop the plague killing you.
    - XorNot 7mo ago
      The immune system does not expend resources on vaccines. You do not somehow go into deficit by getting a vaccine.
      - wizzwizz4 7mo ago
        The immune system does expend resources on vaccines: it makes antibodies, usually has some kind of inflammatory response…. But if a vaccine causes a nutritional deficiency, there's something seriously wrong with your diet.
        XorNot 7mo ago
        This is like saying that balancing while walking expends resources. Yes it's technically true, but it is also how walking functions regardless of circumstance.
dekhn 7mo ago
They didn't claim evolution got it perfectly right. They speculated that immune systems evolved to avoid being continuously on alert. And that's exactly right- our immune systems have an extremely complicated system for detecting foreign invaders that is tightly regulated. And a failure to regulate that is often associated with autoimmune disorders, which remain very poorly understood. I've studied biology from the perspective of engineering better drugs for decades now and I can say with confidence that I simply don't understand how the immune system works, and I don't think anybody else really does either (compared to, say, the heart, or many biological systems like protein production). We have identified many players, and observed a great deal of actions, and have speculative models for many of the underlying processes, but we don't really have an "understanding" of the immune system. I skimmed this paper and frankly, it has a very long way to go before people are convinced to try this in human clinical trials. I look forward to innovations, but to a first order approximation: evolution found model parameters that exceed the best human science and engineering.

amelius 7mo ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amber_alert https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amber_alert Amber alert means something different than the author thinks ...

deleted 7mo ago
[deleted]
RupertSalt 7mo ago
Perhaps "Defcon 02" would be better understood?
kazinator 7mo ago
They wanted "red alert". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Alert https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Alert This is just an idiom for denoting a high alert state.
- RupertSalt 7mo ago
  No, "Red Alert" is called when there is an attack imminent, incoming weapons detected, enemies sighted. So a macrophage on "red alert" would be reacting to an active infection or disease.
  - deleted 7mo ago
    [deleted]
  - kazinator 7mo ago
    Sure, and this vaccine goads the macrophage into that state, putting it on "red alert", without there actually being an infection.
    - RupertSalt 7mo ago
      I suppose it is not worth debating a metaphor written by BBC reporters for the general public, without even reading the research. But I was edified to learn that Dr Edward Jenner was a vaccine pioneer even without the honors of knighthood.

renewiltord 7mo ago

One of the things I do worry about is glasses. Is there a reason why we correct vision? There's probably a reason evolution made some of us see the world in a blur. Likewise with therapy - maybe killing yourself is like cell apoptosis. Many body cells are supposed to choose to die when they no longer function well. It's a good thing. That's often the problem with scientists: "They were so preoccupied with whether they could, they didn't stop to think if they should". Until we find out why nature made it so some of us kill ourselves maybe we shouldn't fuck with it? Remember Chesterton's Fence.

thomquaid 7mo ago
This isnt a vaccine against suicide.
lanyard-textile 7mo ago
Really...?? :) "Sorry son, you can't get these glasses. It's for the betterment of humanity."
- mikestorrent 7mo ago
  I think you missed their sarcasm
  - lanyard-textile 7mo ago
    ... Yeah probably huh :) You just don't know sometimes.
krapp 7mo ago
You're making the mistake of thinking of "nature" and "evolution" as intelligent, reasoning systems, and that every evolutionary adaptation exists for a purpose. Evolution doesn't do things for "reasons," things just happen. Remember that cephalopod brains are donut shaped and their digestive tracts go right through the middle and if they eat something too big they'll have an anyeurism. Pandas and koalas evolved special diets that serve no evolutionary purpose and both would be extinct if humans didn't find them cute. Sloths have to climb down from trees to take a shit. Female hyenas give birth through a pseudopenis that often ruptures and kils them. Horses can't vomit and if they swallow something toxic, their stomach ruptures. Also their hooves and ankles are extremely weak and not well designed to support their weight. Numerous species like the fiddler crab and peacock have evolved sexual displays that are actively harmful to their survival. And as for humans, our spines are not well adapted for walking upright, our retinas are wired backwards, and we still have a useless appendix and wisdom teeth. The recurrent laryngeal nerve has an unnecessarily long and complex route branching off the vagus and travelling around the aorta before running back up to the larynx. Evolution is not smart. Evolution isn't even stupid. It isn't trying to keep you alive and it isn't even capable of caring if you die. Yes we should absolutely fuck with it, because we don't want to live in a world where we still die of sepsis and parasites and plagues because "we don't want to mess with evolution."

giarc 7mo ago

>The effect lasted for around three months in animal experiments. It would just be temporary, but there is likely trade offs.

deleted 7mo ago

[deleted]

mattmaroon 7mo ago

Isn’t Amber alert a missing child? Wouldn’t you say like DEFCON three or something?

RupertSalt 7mo ago
This article is from the UK, so it's more like: evacuate the children, Keep Calm and Carry On, but fight them on the beaches.