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I think the US is markedly better for people in certain professions who want to become rich. This is obviously not true for the general population, but the amou

I think the US is markedly better for people in certain professions who want to become rich. This is obviously not true for the general population, but the amount of cash that's chasing profits in tech means that a non-trivial percentage of SF Bay Area techies have a shot at financial independence (let's say, $10M in the bank). This is certainly not true for IT workers in most of the EU. But if you already have enough to never need to work again, you should be fine in almost any liberal and politically stable country, and there's something to be said about moving to a lower CoL place where you can afford a nicer home, etc.

trimethylpurine 7mo ago
CoL is very low in the US and QoL is very good. Just obviously not near the coast. For some reason many Americans forget that most of America is not in San Francisco.
- showerst 7mo ago
  I'd argue that QoL in middle America is not great compared to similarly priced places in the EU. Americans have worse health outcomes (including lifespan), travel far less and have less time off, and retire later. That said, you do get much more space, nicer housing stock, (arguably) better access to education, and generally more 'stuff', so it's a tradeoff.
  - michaelmrose 7mo ago
    The education is available to those who don't live here. The more "stuff" is not a fair trade for anything else mentioned.
    - trimethylpurine 7mo ago
      Yeah. Education is absolutely broken.
  - trimethylpurine 7mo ago
    I live a few months out of each year in Europe. Usually max out my 90 day stay with ABnB. It's a hard life in Europe. My friend owns 11 bars that are packed 24/7 on a Mediterranean shoreline. He is what anyone would call successful. But he lives in a little apartment and drives a beat up old Mercedes, not because he's modest but because that's what "rich" looks like in Europe. If you ask him, he'll tell you that taxes ensure that you can never be rich in Europe. My friend in middle America owns one bar, multiple houses, multiple cars, kids in private school. And what's mind blowing is that no one in America would consider him "rich." That's just middle class America. I'd love to visit wherever you're going to point to as a counter example. Let me know where I'm headed this summer. Btw I checked about health outcomes. It's actually only true if you look at America as an average. Middle America has much better health outcomes. Look at Utah for example. Again, point was that middle America isn't like the coasts.
    - laurencerowe 7mo ago
      It's true that non-coastal Utah, Colorado, and Minnesota have good life expectancy for the US but they lag behind California, New York, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New Hampshire, Connecticut, and Hawaii. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data-visualization/state-life-expectancy/index_2022.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data-visualization/state-life-expec... Utah is 1.7 years behind the EU average. Even Hawaii with the highest life expectancy in the US is behind all but the former Eastern Block EU countries. https://web.archive.org/web/20240324032202/https://www.ined.fr/en/everything_about_population/data/europe-developed-countries/life-expectancy/ https://web.archive.org/web/20240324032202/https://www.ined.... (Archive link to get comparable 2022 data.)
      - trimethylpurine 7mo ago
        Sounds about right. I'm surprised by California. Nice. But I bet healthcare costs are way higher there. To match with higher income, I guess.
        laurencerowe 7mo ago
        Median income is not much lower in Utah than in California. Utah's low healthcare spending per capita is likely a reflection of Utah having the lowest median age of any state. Most healthcare costs are spent on elderly people. I should add though that life expectancy is affected at least as much by social policy as by healthcare spending. Much of the difference is a result of cars/guns/drugs killing more people earlier in life in the US than in Europe.
- mmooss 7mo ago
  > CoL is very low in the US and QoL is very good. Compared to where? What is that based on? The strong public sentiment, determining elections, is that the US is unaffordable. People work multiple jobs and can't afford health care, housing, education, or even food.
  - trimethylpurine 7mo ago
    Well, compared to San Francisco, was my point. But you can look at random places like Tel Aviv, or London, or Milan. CoL is high in big cities around the world. How about South Dakota vs the UK. >The strong public sentiment That's everywhere in the world. Of course, politicians are catering to what everyone complains about. But objectively, healthcare is better than it ever has been in the history of the world in every country in the world, including the US. Right? So you're right, it determines elections. But it shouldn't. That's really what I'm trying to say.
- jfim 7mo ago
  It depends what you include in cost of living. Healthcare and education tend to be more expensive than other first world countries, and the taxes are high given the fact that healthcare and education aren't part of what one gets from paying taxes.
  - trimethylpurine 7mo ago
    Depends which state. I pay less for healthcare in the US than my friends in Europe when we break down the tax costs and private supplemental care that's necessary in Europe. In fact, I pay their private health care costs myself because I don't want to wait a year for them to get shoulder surgery in the "free" health care system that's clearly not free.
- laurencerowe 7mo ago
  Quality of life is very subjective though. Few American cities offer the kind of walkable lifestyles those of us who moved from Europe took for granted. San Francisco is one of the few places that can offer that, though even then I spent most of my career here driving out to Silicon Valley's suburban office parks. At least I could always walk to the supermarket, bars, restaurants, and cafes in my neighbourhood. If you value a big house and are content to drive for all your errands most of the US is set up for that.
  - trimethylpurine 7mo ago
    You're right, the cost is significantly higher than Europe to live in walkable type developments in the US. I prefer to drive places, myself. Carrying stuff home and shopping daily wasn't a highlight for my time in Europe. It takes so much time.
qwerpy 7mo ago
Agree, many of my peers are on track to reach financial independence around 45. No compromises needed: Nice large home, good schools, safe neighborhood, plenty left over for luxuries and travel. I don’t know of anywhere else in the world where fairly normal but hard-working people can reliably do this (provided you got lucky enough to get hired at and survive a FAANG for ~10 years). From here we can then move to a lower CoL place or stay put, whatever makes sense for our families.
- relaxing 7mo ago
  > Nice large home, good schools, safe neighborhood, plenty left over for luxuries and travel. I don’t know of anywhere else in the world where fairly normal but hard-working people can reliably do this There’s no way you’re really this dumb.
  - HEmanZ 7mo ago
    I think the only part of that statement I kind of agree with is the “large home” part. It’s much easier to afford good schools, safe neighborhood, luxuries and travel in most of Western Europe than it is in the US. Because the first two are basically free, travel is cheap, so you have plenty left over for luxuries (unless you want like race cars or something)
    - torginus 7mo ago
      Good schools are certainly not free in most Western European countries, in fact for most middle class families, it's one of their biggest expenses to put their 2-3 kids through secondary schools.
      - relaxing 7mo ago
        There’s a massive disconnect here between a “good school” in the US and an expensive international school, and no definition of middle class where a majority of families pay for it. “most Western European countries” is not a thing. Nonsense.
drysine 7mo ago
>financial independence (let's say, $10M in the bank) In Russia $1M gives you financial independence for life
- throw-the-towel 7mo ago
  Until the next regime change or great war destroys your assets or makes them worthless. (Granted, that doesn't seem so impossible in the States any more, either.)
  - drysine 7mo ago
    >doesn't seem so impossible in the States any more A great war means both our countries will be thoroughly nuked.
- maximinus_thrax 7mo ago
  Yes, but what kind of life is that?
bachmeier 7mo ago
> a non-trivial percentage of SF Bay Area techies have a shot at financial independence (let's say, $10M in the bank) You can become financially independent in most parts of the US. You definitely do not need $10M. $1.5M is enough. If you want a lavish lifestyle or you want to have complete control over where you live, of course that will require more, but financial independence means only that you have enough to cover the bills and live a modest but comfortable lifestyle.

trimethylpurine 7mo ago

CoL is very low in the US and QoL is very good. Just obviously not near the coast. For some reason many Americans forget that most of America is not in San Francisco.

showerst 7mo ago
I'd argue that QoL in middle America is not great compared to similarly priced places in the EU. Americans have worse health outcomes (including lifespan), travel far less and have less time off, and retire later. That said, you do get much more space, nicer housing stock, (arguably) better access to education, and generally more 'stuff', so it's a tradeoff.
- michaelmrose 7mo ago
  The education is available to those who don't live here. The more "stuff" is not a fair trade for anything else mentioned.
  - trimethylpurine 7mo ago
    Yeah. Education is absolutely broken.
- trimethylpurine 7mo ago
  I live a few months out of each year in Europe. Usually max out my 90 day stay with ABnB. It's a hard life in Europe. My friend owns 11 bars that are packed 24/7 on a Mediterranean shoreline. He is what anyone would call successful. But he lives in a little apartment and drives a beat up old Mercedes, not because he's modest but because that's what "rich" looks like in Europe. If you ask him, he'll tell you that taxes ensure that you can never be rich in Europe. My friend in middle America owns one bar, multiple houses, multiple cars, kids in private school. And what's mind blowing is that no one in America would consider him "rich." That's just middle class America. I'd love to visit wherever you're going to point to as a counter example. Let me know where I'm headed this summer. Btw I checked about health outcomes. It's actually only true if you look at America as an average. Middle America has much better health outcomes. Look at Utah for example. Again, point was that middle America isn't like the coasts.
  - laurencerowe 7mo ago
    It's true that non-coastal Utah, Colorado, and Minnesota have good life expectancy for the US but they lag behind California, New York, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New Hampshire, Connecticut, and Hawaii. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data-visualization/state-life-expectancy/index_2022.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data-visualization/state-life-expec... Utah is 1.7 years behind the EU average. Even Hawaii with the highest life expectancy in the US is behind all but the former Eastern Block EU countries. https://web.archive.org/web/20240324032202/https://www.ined.fr/en/everything_about_population/data/europe-developed-countries/life-expectancy/ https://web.archive.org/web/20240324032202/https://www.ined.... (Archive link to get comparable 2022 data.)
    - trimethylpurine 7mo ago
      Sounds about right. I'm surprised by California. Nice. But I bet healthcare costs are way higher there. To match with higher income, I guess.
      - laurencerowe 7mo ago
        Median income is not much lower in Utah than in California. Utah's low healthcare spending per capita is likely a reflection of Utah having the lowest median age of any state. Most healthcare costs are spent on elderly people. I should add though that life expectancy is affected at least as much by social policy as by healthcare spending. Much of the difference is a result of cars/guns/drugs killing more people earlier in life in the US than in Europe.
mmooss 7mo ago
> CoL is very low in the US and QoL is very good. Compared to where? What is that based on? The strong public sentiment, determining elections, is that the US is unaffordable. People work multiple jobs and can't afford health care, housing, education, or even food.
- trimethylpurine 7mo ago
  Well, compared to San Francisco, was my point. But you can look at random places like Tel Aviv, or London, or Milan. CoL is high in big cities around the world. How about South Dakota vs the UK. >The strong public sentiment That's everywhere in the world. Of course, politicians are catering to what everyone complains about. But objectively, healthcare is better than it ever has been in the history of the world in every country in the world, including the US. Right? So you're right, it determines elections. But it shouldn't. That's really what I'm trying to say.
jfim 7mo ago
It depends what you include in cost of living. Healthcare and education tend to be more expensive than other first world countries, and the taxes are high given the fact that healthcare and education aren't part of what one gets from paying taxes.
- trimethylpurine 7mo ago
  Depends which state. I pay less for healthcare in the US than my friends in Europe when we break down the tax costs and private supplemental care that's necessary in Europe. In fact, I pay their private health care costs myself because I don't want to wait a year for them to get shoulder surgery in the "free" health care system that's clearly not free.
laurencerowe 7mo ago
Quality of life is very subjective though. Few American cities offer the kind of walkable lifestyles those of us who moved from Europe took for granted. San Francisco is one of the few places that can offer that, though even then I spent most of my career here driving out to Silicon Valley's suburban office parks. At least I could always walk to the supermarket, bars, restaurants, and cafes in my neighbourhood. If you value a big house and are content to drive for all your errands most of the US is set up for that.
- trimethylpurine 7mo ago
  You're right, the cost is significantly higher than Europe to live in walkable type developments in the US. I prefer to drive places, myself. Carrying stuff home and shopping daily wasn't a highlight for my time in Europe. It takes so much time.

qwerpy 7mo ago

Agree, many of my peers are on track to reach financial independence around 45. No compromises needed: Nice large home, good schools, safe neighborhood, plenty left over for luxuries and travel. I don’t know of anywhere else in the world where fairly normal but hard-working people can reliably do this (provided you got lucky enough to get hired at and survive a FAANG for ~10 years). From here we can then move to a lower CoL place or stay put, whatever makes sense for our families.

relaxing 7mo ago
> Nice large home, good schools, safe neighborhood, plenty left over for luxuries and travel. I don’t know of anywhere else in the world where fairly normal but hard-working people can reliably do this There’s no way you’re really this dumb.
- HEmanZ 7mo ago
  I think the only part of that statement I kind of agree with is the “large home” part. It’s much easier to afford good schools, safe neighborhood, luxuries and travel in most of Western Europe than it is in the US. Because the first two are basically free, travel is cheap, so you have plenty left over for luxuries (unless you want like race cars or something)
  - torginus 7mo ago
    Good schools are certainly not free in most Western European countries, in fact for most middle class families, it's one of their biggest expenses to put their 2-3 kids through secondary schools.
    - relaxing 7mo ago
      There’s a massive disconnect here between a “good school” in the US and an expensive international school, and no definition of middle class where a majority of families pay for it. “most Western European countries” is not a thing. Nonsense.

drysine 7mo ago

>financial independence (let's say, $10M in the bank) In Russia $1M gives you financial independence for life

throw-the-towel 7mo ago
Until the next regime change or great war destroys your assets or makes them worthless. (Granted, that doesn't seem so impossible in the States any more, either.)
- drysine 7mo ago
  >doesn't seem so impossible in the States any more A great war means both our countries will be thoroughly nuked.
maximinus_thrax 7mo ago
Yes, but what kind of life is that?

bachmeier 7mo ago

> a non-trivial percentage of SF Bay Area techies have a shot at financial independence (let's say, $10M in the bank) You can become financially independent in most parts of the US. You definitely do not need $10M. $1.5M is enough. If you want a lavish lifestyle or you want to have complete control over where you live, of course that will require more, but financial independence means only that you have enough to cover the bills and live a modest but comfortable lifestyle.