6 ms·

Previous discussions: 3 months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45590900 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45590900 4 years ago: https://news.ycom

by yesfitz 7mo ago

Previous discussions: 3 months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45590900 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45590900 4 years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29977176 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29977176 People have seemed critical of the presentation, scope, and goal of this program. (e.g. It's not "universal" basic income, the number of recipients is limited to 2,000, and why are artists being subsidized instead of essential workers?) Now it seems that we'll get some real world answer to those questions/concerns.

bell-cot 7mo ago
> and why are artists being subsidized instead of essential workers? There are far more than 2,000 real, paying jobs for schoolteachers. And for grocery clerks. And for nurses. And for fire fighters. And for drivers of rubbish lorries. And for ... Not so much for the folks who hope to be the next James Joyce or Louis le Brocquy.
- sam_lowry_ 7mo ago
  I hope to be the next Rothshild, give me a trillion!
  - its_magic 7mo ago
    [flagged]
- mantas 7mo ago
  Those can go and do normal jobs like grocery clerks. While doing their art in free time. Like many famous artists were doing.
  - bell-cot 7mo ago
    With the modest size of the monthly checks, most of them may need to do that anyway. But the obvious point is to help "artists" in Ireland. It's pretty normal for small nations to want to cultivate / protect / subsidize their arts / culture / language / whatever. The Irish gov't isn't trumpeting this program because they think it'll annoy Irish voters.
    - mantas 7mo ago
      I’m all for encouraging people to create art. But I think people who benefit from this won’t be artists. But people who are good at making money off artsy projects. I’d see much more value in investing in supply and demand. First, provide free studios with arts supplies, music instruments and so on. Next, force government agencies to hire local artists. Make municipalities have live music for local events and hire local musicians. Make gov agencies buy local art for decorations etc.
      - bell-cot 7mo ago
        > ...I think people who benefit... 325 Euros/week sounds like basic rent & food & transportation. Not artsy projects with enough spare Euros for someone to skim serious money off from. Providing "free" studios, supplies, instruments, etc. sounds like a scheme to give politicians more photo ops and bureaucrats more jobs. Why can't the artists just source exactly what they think they need from existing supply chains?
        TheOtherHobbes 7mo ago
        It's about 60% of the Irish minimum wage. So more of a nice gesture than a generous handout or a true attempt at UBI.
        extraduder_ire 7mo ago
        There is no requirement that it be the entirety of someone's income. The normal welfare and employment system still applies to recipients, which is one of the more notable things about it.
        mantas 7mo ago
        > 325 Euros/week sounds like basic rent & food & transportation. Not artsy projects with enough spare Euros for someone to skim serious money off from. Exactly. But it's a nice addition for „project-conscious“ crowd who can add one more income stream. > Providing "free" studios, supplies, instruments, etc. sounds like a scheme to give politicians more photo ops and bureaucrats more jobs Some libraries here started providing free studios with some basic instruments. I hear it was a hit with long wait times. It's awesome for artsy people who want to get together and jam with friends on saturday morning. Artsy people neighbours also love it that they don't have to hear said jams too :) It's also great for kids who want to give it a shot. It's easier to come in and find some instruments than try to get some used stuff just to play. I'm all for enabling people to do artsy stuff en-masse. The more people give it a shot, the better. Results don't matter, playing and creating something (no matter how crappy) is important. IMO „mass-playing-with-art“ has much better ROI than handouts to let a selected crop of people pretend they're living off their art.
  - metalman 7mo ago
    artists dont do "normal" and generaly experience reality from a particular, and personal point of view, and grocerie store managers and young artists will almost certainly have mutualy antagonistic points of view. artists thrive in random spontainious environments, but forget about food, so we give them money, that they give to normal grocery store clerks, and we all forgo the seething frustration that would result from your suggestion.
    - mantas 7mo ago
      What I see among artist friends, they have no problems holding a job. But their art is not exactly „bill-paying“. It's not bad, it's just not commercializable mainstream. At best it covers their expenses for studios, equipment and so on. For that crowd, money for 3 years is not really interesting. It would ruin their existing (smaller or bigger) non-artsy careers. But their art, without significant mainstream changes, has no chance to cover a living. Even after focusing on it for 3 years. I don't see a point to give such crowd a free ride either. They're fully capable society members. I don't see a difference between such artist getting a free ride vs me getting free money to ride my bicycle because I'd maybe do some cool shit if I had more time. Or maybe I should get a handout to do some opensource? Code is also art anyway.
- AlexandrB 7mo ago
  Many people who work as schoolteachers, grocery clerks, etc. at one point might have had ambition to be the next James Joyce.
  - jl6 7mo ago
    Joyce did work as a schoolteacher. Maybe he would have written better books if he hadn’t had to do this.
    - lucketone 7mo ago
      Equally possible that those books would have been worse.
bawolff 7mo ago
I dont see how we are getting "answers". Disagreeing with program design is not a question. Tbh though, that doesn't sound that special. Many countries subsidize artists.
- ergocoder 7mo ago
  There's no good way to evaluate the result anyway. Grants like this at a small scale is generally inconsequential to the country.
  - bawolff 7mo ago
    You could evaluate how much art gets created
    - ergocoder 7mo ago
      Anyone could have created a godly insane amount of arts if they don't care about quality. The quantity of arts isn't a good metrics.
      - bawolff 7mo ago
        Sure, but you can also evaluate if it gets awards, or buyers, buzz, etc. I agree its pretty subjective and not the essiest thing to evaluate, but i think its certainly possible.

by yesfitz 7mo ago

bell-cot 7mo ago

> and why are artists being subsidized instead of essential workers? There are far more than 2,000 real, paying jobs for schoolteachers. And for grocery clerks. And for nurses. And for fire fighters. And for drivers of rubbish lorries. And for ... Not so much for the folks who hope to be the next James Joyce or Louis le Brocquy.

sam_lowry_ 7mo ago
I hope to be the next Rothshild, give me a trillion!
- its_magic 7mo ago
  [flagged]
mantas 7mo ago
Those can go and do normal jobs like grocery clerks. While doing their art in free time. Like many famous artists were doing.
- bell-cot 7mo ago
  With the modest size of the monthly checks, most of them may need to do that anyway. But the obvious point is to help "artists" in Ireland. It's pretty normal for small nations to want to cultivate / protect / subsidize their arts / culture / language / whatever. The Irish gov't isn't trumpeting this program because they think it'll annoy Irish voters.
  - mantas 7mo ago
    I’m all for encouraging people to create art. But I think people who benefit from this won’t be artists. But people who are good at making money off artsy projects. I’d see much more value in investing in supply and demand. First, provide free studios with arts supplies, music instruments and so on. Next, force government agencies to hire local artists. Make municipalities have live music for local events and hire local musicians. Make gov agencies buy local art for decorations etc.
    - bell-cot 7mo ago
      > ...I think people who benefit... 325 Euros/week sounds like basic rent & food & transportation. Not artsy projects with enough spare Euros for someone to skim serious money off from. Providing "free" studios, supplies, instruments, etc. sounds like a scheme to give politicians more photo ops and bureaucrats more jobs. Why can't the artists just source exactly what they think they need from existing supply chains?
      - TheOtherHobbes 7mo ago
        It's about 60% of the Irish minimum wage. So more of a nice gesture than a generous handout or a true attempt at UBI.
        extraduder_ire 7mo ago
        There is no requirement that it be the entirety of someone's income. The normal welfare and employment system still applies to recipients, which is one of the more notable things about it.
      - mantas 7mo ago
        > 325 Euros/week sounds like basic rent & food & transportation. Not artsy projects with enough spare Euros for someone to skim serious money off from. Exactly. But it's a nice addition for „project-conscious“ crowd who can add one more income stream. > Providing "free" studios, supplies, instruments, etc. sounds like a scheme to give politicians more photo ops and bureaucrats more jobs Some libraries here started providing free studios with some basic instruments. I hear it was a hit with long wait times. It's awesome for artsy people who want to get together and jam with friends on saturday morning. Artsy people neighbours also love it that they don't have to hear said jams too :) It's also great for kids who want to give it a shot. It's easier to come in and find some instruments than try to get some used stuff just to play. I'm all for enabling people to do artsy stuff en-masse. The more people give it a shot, the better. Results don't matter, playing and creating something (no matter how crappy) is important. IMO „mass-playing-with-art“ has much better ROI than handouts to let a selected crop of people pretend they're living off their art.
- metalman 7mo ago
  artists dont do "normal" and generaly experience reality from a particular, and personal point of view, and grocerie store managers and young artists will almost certainly have mutualy antagonistic points of view. artists thrive in random spontainious environments, but forget about food, so we give them money, that they give to normal grocery store clerks, and we all forgo the seething frustration that would result from your suggestion.
  - mantas 7mo ago
    What I see among artist friends, they have no problems holding a job. But their art is not exactly „bill-paying“. It's not bad, it's just not commercializable mainstream. At best it covers their expenses for studios, equipment and so on. For that crowd, money for 3 years is not really interesting. It would ruin their existing (smaller or bigger) non-artsy careers. But their art, without significant mainstream changes, has no chance to cover a living. Even after focusing on it for 3 years. I don't see a point to give such crowd a free ride either. They're fully capable society members. I don't see a difference between such artist getting a free ride vs me getting free money to ride my bicycle because I'd maybe do some cool shit if I had more time. Or maybe I should get a handout to do some opensource? Code is also art anyway.
AlexandrB 7mo ago
Many people who work as schoolteachers, grocery clerks, etc. at one point might have had ambition to be the next James Joyce.
- jl6 7mo ago
  Joyce did work as a schoolteacher. Maybe he would have written better books if he hadn’t had to do this.
  - lucketone 7mo ago
    Equally possible that those books would have been worse.

bawolff 7mo ago

I dont see how we are getting "answers". Disagreeing with program design is not a question. Tbh though, that doesn't sound that special. Many countries subsidize artists.

ergocoder 7mo ago
There's no good way to evaluate the result anyway. Grants like this at a small scale is generally inconsequential to the country.
- bawolff 7mo ago
  You could evaluate how much art gets created
  - ergocoder 7mo ago
    Anyone could have created a godly insane amount of arts if they don't care about quality. The quantity of arts isn't a good metrics.
    - bawolff 7mo ago
      Sure, but you can also evaluate if it gets awards, or buyers, buzz, etc. I agree its pretty subjective and not the essiest thing to evaluate, but i think its certainly possible.