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How would it be run without Emacs? You might point out that there are things like elisp.lisp that purports to run Emacs Lisp in Common Lisp, but I'm not sure t

How would it be run without Emacs? You might point out that there are things like elisp.lisp that purports to run Emacs Lisp in Common Lisp, but I'm not sure that's viable for anything but trivial programs. There's also something for Guile, but I remain unconvinced.

notpushkin 7mo ago
Maybe a Common Lisp core with an Emacs frontend running it in https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_mono/cl.html https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_mono/cl.html?
- mickeyp 7mo ago
  Why not just use the best known emacs lisp core, then? Like say emacs.
  - notpushkin 7mo ago
    To allow it to run on other lisp dialects as well. (I’m just trying to defend GP’s point – I’m not a heavy lisp user myself, tbh.)
    - larsbrinkhoff 7mo ago
      Portability across Lisp dialects is usually not a thing. Even Emacs Lisp and Common Lisp which are arguably pretty close rarely if ever share code. You could make a frontend for dialect A to run code from dialect B. Those things have been toyed with, but never really took off. E.g. cl in Emacs can not accept real Common Lisp code. I'm not arguing against the idea, I'm just curious how it would work because I see no realistic way to do it.
      - notpushkin 7mo ago
        Gotcha. Too bad – I was hoping there was at least some (non-trivial) subset you can run on both :( Any idea why is it not a thing? Is this level of interop not practical for some reason?
        larsbrinkhoff 7mo ago
        Lisp dialects have diverged quite a bit, and it would be a lot of work to bridge the differences to a degree approaching 100%. 90% is easy, but only works for small trivial programs. I say this, having written a "95%" Common Lisp for Emacs (still a toy), and successfully ran an old Maclisp compiler and assembler in Common Lisp. https://github.com/larsbrinkhoff/emacs-cl https://github.com/larsbrinkhoff/emacs-cl https://github.com/PDP-6/ITS-138/blob/master/tools/maclisp.lisp https://github.com/PDP-6/ITS-138/blob/master/tools/maclisp.l...
agumonkey 7mo ago
still in their main doc https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Emacs-Lisp.html https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Emacs-Li...
- larsbrinkhoff 7mo ago
  Having read that, I'm even less convinced it's not more than a toy.
convolvatron 7mo ago
you could probably use the unexec tooling
- larsbrinkhoff 7mo ago
  I don't see how unexec would help with "decoupling the core from Emacs" since the core is written in Emacs Lisp.
  - convolvatron 7mo ago
    you could make a standalone executable. I was assuming that people didn't want to start emacs to run it. if its just because...emacs is just morally offensive and one doesn't even want it running under the covers, I dont how to help you.
    - larsbrinkhoff 7mo ago
      Emacs is needed because it provides Emacs Lisp.
      - DonHopkins 7mo ago
        If you used Emacs as a stand-alone game engine, at least it could make it claim it was "Reticulating Splines..." for a few minutes while it started up. I kid, I kid! I love Emacs. I named my cat Emacs!

notpushkin 7mo ago

Maybe a Common Lisp core with an Emacs frontend running it in https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_mono/cl.html https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_mono/cl.html?

mickeyp 7mo ago
Why not just use the best known emacs lisp core, then? Like say emacs.
- notpushkin 7mo ago
  To allow it to run on other lisp dialects as well. (I’m just trying to defend GP’s point – I’m not a heavy lisp user myself, tbh.)
  - larsbrinkhoff 7mo ago
    Portability across Lisp dialects is usually not a thing. Even Emacs Lisp and Common Lisp which are arguably pretty close rarely if ever share code. You could make a frontend for dialect A to run code from dialect B. Those things have been toyed with, but never really took off. E.g. cl in Emacs can not accept real Common Lisp code. I'm not arguing against the idea, I'm just curious how it would work because I see no realistic way to do it.
    - notpushkin 7mo ago
      Gotcha. Too bad – I was hoping there was at least some (non-trivial) subset you can run on both :( Any idea why is it not a thing? Is this level of interop not practical for some reason?
      - larsbrinkhoff 7mo ago
        Lisp dialects have diverged quite a bit, and it would be a lot of work to bridge the differences to a degree approaching 100%. 90% is easy, but only works for small trivial programs. I say this, having written a "95%" Common Lisp for Emacs (still a toy), and successfully ran an old Maclisp compiler and assembler in Common Lisp. https://github.com/larsbrinkhoff/emacs-cl https://github.com/larsbrinkhoff/emacs-cl https://github.com/PDP-6/ITS-138/blob/master/tools/maclisp.lisp https://github.com/PDP-6/ITS-138/blob/master/tools/maclisp.l...

agumonkey 7mo ago

still in their main doc https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Emacs-Lisp.html https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Emacs-Li...

larsbrinkhoff 7mo ago
Having read that, I'm even less convinced it's not more than a toy.

convolvatron 7mo ago

you could probably use the unexec tooling

larsbrinkhoff 7mo ago
I don't see how unexec would help with "decoupling the core from Emacs" since the core is written in Emacs Lisp.
- convolvatron 7mo ago
  you could make a standalone executable. I was assuming that people didn't want to start emacs to run it. if its just because...emacs is just morally offensive and one doesn't even want it running under the covers, I dont how to help you.
  - larsbrinkhoff 7mo ago
    Emacs is needed because it provides Emacs Lisp.
    - DonHopkins 7mo ago
      If you used Emacs as a stand-alone game engine, at least it could make it claim it was "Reticulating Splines..." for a few minutes while it started up. I kid, I kid! I love Emacs. I named my cat Emacs!