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The "signed transaction, not a log stream" framing is exactly right. Logs are optimistic - you assume they're complete and unmodified. Receipts are pessimistic

by kxbnb 8mo ago

The "signed transaction, not a log stream" framing is exactly right. Logs are optimistic - you assume they're complete and unmodified. Receipts are pessimistic - you verify before trusting. We've been thinking about a related problem at toran.sh: capturing what an agent actually sent to external APIs (and what came back) without trusting the agent's self-reported logs. Different angle - we focus on the API request/response level rather than the decision/action level - but the same underlying insight: the source of truth needs to be outside the agent's control. The Ed25519 + canonical JSON approach is clean. Question: how are you handling schema evolution? If the receipt format changes, older receipts still need to verify but newer tooling might expect different fields.

W_rey45 8mo ago
Great question this is exactly the tension we’re trying to be explicit about. CIRCE separates cryptographic verification from semantic interpretation. The signature covers a minimal, stable signed_block (canonicalized → hashed → signed). Everything else is metadata that can evolve without affecting verification. Older receipts remain verifiable because the verifier only assumes the signed scope + canonicalization rules. Newer tooling can understand more fields, but must ignore unknown/missing fields (JWT / signed artifact style). We also include a schema identifier/hash for tooling selection, but it’s intentionally not security-critical — verification is purely about integrity. Also: toran.sh’s angle is super aligned. Capturing actual API request/response outside the agent’s control feels like the “ground truth” complement to CIRCE’s “decision truth.” Curious: are you anchoring the API transcript via a sidecar/proxy with its own signing key, or are you doing something like a transparency log/Merkle chain for requests?

by kxbnb 8mo ago

W_rey45 8mo ago

Great question this is exactly the tension we’re trying to be explicit about. CIRCE separates cryptographic verification from semantic interpretation. The signature covers a minimal, stable signed_block (canonicalized → hashed → signed). Everything else is metadata that can evolve without affecting verification. Older receipts remain verifiable because the verifier only assumes the signed scope + canonicalization rules. Newer tooling can understand more fields, but must ignore unknown/missing fields (JWT / signed artifact style). We also include a schema identifier/hash for tooling selection, but it’s intentionally not security-critical — verification is purely about integrity. Also: toran.sh’s angle is super aligned. Capturing actual API request/response outside the agent’s control feels like the “ground truth” complement to CIRCE’s “decision truth.” Curious: are you anchoring the API transcript via a sidecar/proxy with its own signing key, or are you doing something like a transparency log/Merkle chain for requests?