11 ms·

This is true of all contract notarization in Germany (even when buying a house, jesus that is a slog), and although it is a bendy-banana level silly thing that

This is true of all contract notarization in Germany (even when buying a house, jesus that is a slog), and although it is a bendy-banana level silly thing that people focus on, isn't actually the biggest problem in company founding here. MUCH more problematic is unfavorable tax rules making equity compensation difficult, capital requirements, legal/notary fees, and an investor class that is notoriously skittish. If you could solve all those problems and still had to go listen to the Notar recite the contract in a monotone, it would be a worth trade.

askonomm 8mo ago
That's crazy. Notarization in Estonia can be done entirely online using a digital signature, just like everything else here is done (including voting, getting married, getting divorced, filing taxes, opening/closing a company, etc). From all I hear Germany is still stuck in the 90s for some reason.
- tietjens 8mo ago
  90s is charitable. Most important thing here is that nothing changes. Everything new is considered suspicious.
  - askonomm 8mo ago
    The weird thing is that, at least as an Estonian, I would've never expected this from Germany. Italy, Spain? Sure. Germany? That just feels weird.
    - vander_elst 8mo ago
      Germany is incredibly under developed in the digitalization plus the amount of red tape to do even basic things is also very large as well. Getting rid of these things takes a lot of will power and at the moment there is very little.
    - ost-ing 8mo ago
      Germany never thought it would be in the current situation - decaying health care, pension system, cornerstone industry in decline, lack of digitalization, the list goes on. Massive reforms are needed, action is needed, but there is too much inertia in the system to change anything quickly. Smaller countries like Estonia have the ability to be much more nimble.
      - tietjens 8mo ago
        Yes somehow they believed the 90s continue despite zero public investment. They talk about the dangers of debt for future generations, but they are silent about the infrastructure debt they are saddling their children with by not investing on any serious scale.
      - iknowstuff 8mo ago
        Fun fact, the Bundestag is one of the most representative parliaments in the world thanks to MMP. Is the executive dysfunctional? Is it the federal split into 16 tiny states causing this? If it was just a matter of size, similar/larger countries would be in the same state, and at least one of your smaller states would get ahead right?
    - usrnm 8mo ago
      Just wait until you try to use their trains
  - _petronius 8mo ago
    More like no one is willing to stick their neck out politically to argue for the positive public policy changes, or challenge regulatory interpretation needed to make real change. Plenty of people see the problems, and even want to fix them, and get stymied by political processes that abhor actually having to argue for change to electorate.
- the_mitsuhiko 8mo ago
  I can also listen to a notary online in Austria. I just absolutely do not want to have the notary involved in the first place.
- yencabulator 8mo ago
  Lots of systems are stuck in very old ways of working and using humans as cogs. My American utility bill has a typo in my name that is not there in the online system through which I opened my account; a human in a back office read text from one app and typed it into another. Maybe there was even a piece of paper involved.
hijodelsol 8mo ago
I agree. The notary process is a bit annoying, but it only costs 500-1,000 euros. Yes, that's not ideal, but if you're building a proper business, that shouldn't be an issue. You can typically get an appointment within a week, no matter where you are or where your company is registered. However, once the notary sends your documents off, it can take days or weeks for the registry courts to handle them. You have to register with ten other places yourselves, and there's no guidance. There are different forms and requirements, and the yearly costs just for a basic tax declaration are in the thousands. They can be 5-10% of early startup expenses for no good reason. There are also some shady setups, such as a private company handling the company registry for the state. You have to pay this company each year to publish your books. Accessing that data still costs money, except for the largest companies. It doesn't help with transparency, but it is a public-private rent-seeking nightmare that (possibly) arose due to conflicts of interest among certain politicians (the company's CEO has a higher-level position in political party) and lobbying.
- pjc50 8mo ago
  In the UK there's an API https://developer.company-information.service.gov.uk/overview/ https://developer.company-information.service.gov.uk/overvie... and it costs £50. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/companies-house-fees/companies-house-fees https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/companies-house-f... Why is Germany ten times less efficient?
  - direwolf20 8mo ago
    Germany really wants you to be a sole trader with unlimited liability, and treats a liability shield as something you shouldn't have.
- tchalla 8mo ago
  > but it only costs 500-1,000 euros. Yes, that's not ideal, but if you're building a proper business, that shouldn't be an issue. It is and should be an issue. You shouldn’t be required to put in any money towards a text to speech translator let alone 1000€.
bgnn 8mo ago
This here is the problem for most of EU countries. We Dutch are proud how easy it is to do business here. Maybe, compared to some other countries. But starting a BV here and 1 month later finding a representative of a trade union (metal sector, which somehow semiconductors fall under together with car garages, petrol stations, steel factories..) and asking me to come to their office in person to explain what we do, and calculate how much their cut will be was weird at first. Of course being extremely busy with actual business, I forgot, and got a letter with an 100k Euros invoice attached. Apparently they assumed 15 employees with 45k gross salary, and thought this is a fair trade union contribution! When I didn't respond to that, while discussing it with our lawyers, they sent a fine over this invoice which made it 140k. This is all within 3-4 months of registering mind you! At the end the lawyers handled that, but yeah, what the hell..
- Am4TIfIsER0ppos 8mo ago
  > finding a representative of a trade union > how much their cut will be Did you have any employees yet? I guess so. Isn't it the employees' responsibility pay for their union membership?
  - f_devd 8mo ago
    > Isn't it the employees' responsibility pay for their union membership? No, contributions are handled by the employer/company
    - deleted 8mo ago
      [deleted]
    - bgnn 8mo ago
      Individuals pay like 25-30 Euronth contribution, which is tax deductible. Employers can pay a lot, like 10% or more, which is often going to a social security fund.
- rambambram 8mo ago
  These trade unions are notorious for that. I worked as a labor legal advisor and especially the unions for temporary employment agency start 'barking' and demand loads of money (even from years back). Sometimes it's not even clear which union is applicable. You probably have all the info right now, but make sure everything is 'in line'. I mean, have your company codes at the tax authority match the applicable union match the actual things that your company does. Depending on the jobs of the employees, it might be smart to split the company into multiple legal entities. All in all you can be happy that this happened within a couple of months. Finding this out when you're years underway and then having to pay millions... I've seen plenty of these cases. Want to start a business in The Netherlands? Make sure to do a 'CAO check' first, think about how to structure your company (one entity? multiple entities? what job goes where?), and do these checks again once you pivot or make certain changes to the actual work that your company does. The rationale for this is also pretty simple: somebody got to pay for all this nice social security. They say it's part of the risk of being an entrepreneur.

askonomm 8mo ago

That's crazy. Notarization in Estonia can be done entirely online using a digital signature, just like everything else here is done (including voting, getting married, getting divorced, filing taxes, opening/closing a company, etc). From all I hear Germany is still stuck in the 90s for some reason.

tietjens 8mo ago
90s is charitable. Most important thing here is that nothing changes. Everything new is considered suspicious.
- askonomm 8mo ago
  The weird thing is that, at least as an Estonian, I would've never expected this from Germany. Italy, Spain? Sure. Germany? That just feels weird.
  - vander_elst 8mo ago
    Germany is incredibly under developed in the digitalization plus the amount of red tape to do even basic things is also very large as well. Getting rid of these things takes a lot of will power and at the moment there is very little.
  - ost-ing 8mo ago
    Germany never thought it would be in the current situation - decaying health care, pension system, cornerstone industry in decline, lack of digitalization, the list goes on. Massive reforms are needed, action is needed, but there is too much inertia in the system to change anything quickly. Smaller countries like Estonia have the ability to be much more nimble.
    - tietjens 8mo ago
      Yes somehow they believed the 90s continue despite zero public investment. They talk about the dangers of debt for future generations, but they are silent about the infrastructure debt they are saddling their children with by not investing on any serious scale.
    - iknowstuff 8mo ago
      Fun fact, the Bundestag is one of the most representative parliaments in the world thanks to MMP. Is the executive dysfunctional? Is it the federal split into 16 tiny states causing this? If it was just a matter of size, similar/larger countries would be in the same state, and at least one of your smaller states would get ahead right?
  - usrnm 8mo ago
    Just wait until you try to use their trains
- _petronius 8mo ago
  More like no one is willing to stick their neck out politically to argue for the positive public policy changes, or challenge regulatory interpretation needed to make real change. Plenty of people see the problems, and even want to fix them, and get stymied by political processes that abhor actually having to argue for change to electorate.
the_mitsuhiko 8mo ago
I can also listen to a notary online in Austria. I just absolutely do not want to have the notary involved in the first place.
yencabulator 8mo ago
Lots of systems are stuck in very old ways of working and using humans as cogs. My American utility bill has a typo in my name that is not there in the online system through which I opened my account; a human in a back office read text from one app and typed it into another. Maybe there was even a piece of paper involved.

hijodelsol 8mo ago

I agree. The notary process is a bit annoying, but it only costs 500-1,000 euros. Yes, that's not ideal, but if you're building a proper business, that shouldn't be an issue. You can typically get an appointment within a week, no matter where you are or where your company is registered. However, once the notary sends your documents off, it can take days or weeks for the registry courts to handle them. You have to register with ten other places yourselves, and there's no guidance. There are different forms and requirements, and the yearly costs just for a basic tax declaration are in the thousands. They can be 5-10% of early startup expenses for no good reason. There are also some shady setups, such as a private company handling the company registry for the state. You have to pay this company each year to publish your books. Accessing that data still costs money, except for the largest companies. It doesn't help with transparency, but it is a public-private rent-seeking nightmare that (possibly) arose due to conflicts of interest among certain politicians (the company's CEO has a higher-level position in political party) and lobbying.

pjc50 8mo ago
In the UK there's an API https://developer.company-information.service.gov.uk/overview/ https://developer.company-information.service.gov.uk/overvie... and it costs £50. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/companies-house-fees/companies-house-fees https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/companies-house-f... Why is Germany ten times less efficient?
- direwolf20 8mo ago
  Germany really wants you to be a sole trader with unlimited liability, and treats a liability shield as something you shouldn't have.
tchalla 8mo ago
> but it only costs 500-1,000 euros. Yes, that's not ideal, but if you're building a proper business, that shouldn't be an issue. It is and should be an issue. You shouldn’t be required to put in any money towards a text to speech translator let alone 1000€.

bgnn 8mo ago

This here is the problem for most of EU countries. We Dutch are proud how easy it is to do business here. Maybe, compared to some other countries. But starting a BV here and 1 month later finding a representative of a trade union (metal sector, which somehow semiconductors fall under together with car garages, petrol stations, steel factories..) and asking me to come to their office in person to explain what we do, and calculate how much their cut will be was weird at first. Of course being extremely busy with actual business, I forgot, and got a letter with an 100k Euros invoice attached. Apparently they assumed 15 employees with 45k gross salary, and thought this is a fair trade union contribution! When I didn't respond to that, while discussing it with our lawyers, they sent a fine over this invoice which made it 140k. This is all within 3-4 months of registering mind you! At the end the lawyers handled that, but yeah, what the hell..

Am4TIfIsER0ppos 8mo ago
> finding a representative of a trade union > how much their cut will be Did you have any employees yet? I guess so. Isn't it the employees' responsibility pay for their union membership?
- f_devd 8mo ago
  > Isn't it the employees' responsibility pay for their union membership? No, contributions are handled by the employer/company
  - deleted 8mo ago
    [deleted]
  - bgnn 8mo ago
    Individuals pay like 25-30 Euronth contribution, which is tax deductible. Employers can pay a lot, like 10% or more, which is often going to a social security fund.
rambambram 8mo ago
These trade unions are notorious for that. I worked as a labor legal advisor and especially the unions for temporary employment agency start 'barking' and demand loads of money (even from years back). Sometimes it's not even clear which union is applicable. You probably have all the info right now, but make sure everything is 'in line'. I mean, have your company codes at the tax authority match the applicable union match the actual things that your company does. Depending on the jobs of the employees, it might be smart to split the company into multiple legal entities. All in all you can be happy that this happened within a couple of months. Finding this out when you're years underway and then having to pay millions... I've seen plenty of these cases. Want to start a business in The Netherlands? Make sure to do a 'CAO check' first, think about how to structure your company (one entity? multiple entities? what job goes where?), and do these checks again once you pivot or make certain changes to the actual work that your company does. The rationale for this is also pretty simple: somebody got to pay for all this nice social security. They say it's part of the risk of being an entrepreneur.