5 ms·

Don't let the people in your life casually get away with promoting fascism. Punish them socially.

by afterburner 8mo ago

rpiguy 8mo ago
[flagged]
- ben_w 8mo ago
  They didn't say "think differently", they said "promoting fascism". If you look at J6 attempted self-coup where people were chanting death threats agaisnt the vice president and had a hangman's noose ready and pipe bombs were found and say "that was a peaceful protest", while also looking at the woman who was shot dead through the side window of her car while departing from a group of ICE officers and call that "self defence againsy attempted vehicular manslaughter", you may have a problem. If your reaction to "Punish them socially" is to claim "That’s the most facist thing I’ve ever heard." of the person who essentially just said "stop talking to these people, stop inviting them to parties and stuff", when your fellow citizens are dying at the hands of federal officers who are being given defacto immunity, you may have a problem. The current administration already punishes people for thinking differently with a lot worse than not inviting them to dinner; is the kind of regime that creates refugees and asylum seekers out of its own citizens, who flee from it.
  - jimmydddd 8mo ago
    The problem is that after years of people crying "facism" for mean tweets, lowering coprorate taxes and eforcing a national border, the term has lost any meaning. Maybe we need a new term?
    - croon 8mo ago
      The people crying fascism years ago were right, and now it's here. It hasn't lost meaning, too many people just liked the fascism.
  - rpiguy 8mo ago
    [flagged]
    - ben_w 8mo ago
      Y'see, this is exactly what I mean: "You may have a problem" was carefully much more neutral than your reaction here. > Oh yeah the coup where no one brought firearms and the only person shot was a protester? Multiple individuals connected to Jan 6 were found with guns and ammunition: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/capitol-riot-weapons-deadly-dangerous/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/capitol-riot-weapons-deadly-dan... and https://www.npr.org/2021/03/19/977879589/yes-capitol-rioters-were-armed-here-are-the-weapons-prosecutors-say-they-used https://www.npr.org/2021/03/19/977879589/yes-capitol-rioters... > The cop who shot Ashley Babbit was given “de facto immunity.” Video from inside the Capitol building showed her attempting to climb through a broken window outside the House chamber when the officer, who was guarding the entrance from the rioters, fired. As in, while committing a crime. Not through the *side* window of a car. > Half the country is outraged that leftists think just because they don’t like immigration law, as it is written and voted for, that it’s okay to obstruct deportations and drive vehicles into innocent ICE officers doing their job. Read this carefully: Side. Window. She (Renne Good) did not, and could not, have been driving the car into the person who shot her through the side window. Because, and I don't know if this is news to you, cars do not drive sideways. > If Oklahoma declared itself a sanctuary state from unions and declared it didn’t have to adhere labor law would you agree with their right to do so? If Salt Lake City decided to be a sanctuary for polygamy and underage marriage and started obstructing the FBI when they came in to arrest people would you be cheering? What about! What about! What about! The current administration is violating your own constitution. The behaviour of ICE is unlawful within your own rules. > Imagine the chaos if every city just ignored the laws they don’t like. I don't need to imagine, it looks like Trump. > Calling each other facists and nazis is just lazy, inaccurate, and an excuse for elevating oneself over ones political opponents. There are bronze plaques on the ground in my city dedicated to the victims of fascism. I don't speak for others, but I tell you this myself: Trump has been following the same footsteps as those whose dishonour is memorialised by the names of their victims upon those plaques.
      - 8mo ago
smilliken 8mo ago
That strategy may be cathartic, but it will have the opposite of the desired effect. If there's any hope of changing someone's mind, it has to start by respecting their opinion no matter how wrong you think it is. If you start a fight you'll get a fight.
- bicx 8mo ago
  I agree. Trying to punish will just deepen resentment, and they will live in their echo chamber while you live in yours. Then it's just side vs side, with the pundits leading the dialog. We have to remember that we aren't all working from the same perceptual or moral framework. This is a struggle for me, as I love my parents but our believes have diverged considerably. I think the challenge right now in the U.S. is that for many, it doesn't feel socially safe to question your own side. In reality, we need to feel free to judge actions individually, and judge leaders as a true accumulation of their actions. If we fear rejection from our party/family/friends for not walking in lock-step with the official party stances, that influences a lot of our thinking. No one wants to feel continually guilty about their own views (especially when there are social consequences for changing them), so we often shove aside conflicting details, make jokes, and signal to others that we're still a part of the tribe. It sucks.
- tremon 8mo ago
  I'm sorry, but some opinions are not worth respecting. People who e.g. excuse the genocide in Gaza, deny what happened in Tiananmen Square or who insist that the Jan6 insurrections were "just tourists" should not receive a participation trophy.
- afterburner 8mo ago
  This may eventually work after a long effort, but in the meantime, the person with the fascist thoughts will be deriving social support from you not having cut them off. "Haha, I love fascism, and Bill still likes me and hangs out with me, so I guess I'm good!"

Don't let the people in your life casually get away with promoting fascism. Punish them socially.

rpiguy 8mo ago

[flagged]

ben_w 8mo ago
They didn't say "think differently", they said "promoting fascism". If you look at J6 attempted self-coup where people were chanting death threats agaisnt the vice president and had a hangman's noose ready and pipe bombs were found and say "that was a peaceful protest", while also looking at the woman who was shot dead through the side window of her car while departing from a group of ICE officers and call that "self defence againsy attempted vehicular manslaughter", you may have a problem. If your reaction to "Punish them socially" is to claim "That’s the most facist thing I’ve ever heard." of the person who essentially just said "stop talking to these people, stop inviting them to parties and stuff", when your fellow citizens are dying at the hands of federal officers who are being given defacto immunity, you may have a problem. The current administration already punishes people for thinking differently with a lot worse than not inviting them to dinner; is the kind of regime that creates refugees and asylum seekers out of its own citizens, who flee from it.
- jimmydddd 8mo ago
  The problem is that after years of people crying "facism" for mean tweets, lowering coprorate taxes and eforcing a national border, the term has lost any meaning. Maybe we need a new term?
  - croon 8mo ago
    The people crying fascism years ago were right, and now it's here. It hasn't lost meaning, too many people just liked the fascism.
- rpiguy 8mo ago
  [flagged]
  - ben_w 8mo ago
    Y'see, this is exactly what I mean: "You may have a problem" was carefully much more neutral than your reaction here. > Oh yeah the coup where no one brought firearms and the only person shot was a protester? Multiple individuals connected to Jan 6 were found with guns and ammunition: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/capitol-riot-weapons-deadly-dangerous/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/capitol-riot-weapons-deadly-dan... and https://www.npr.org/2021/03/19/977879589/yes-capitol-rioters-were-armed-here-are-the-weapons-prosecutors-say-they-used https://www.npr.org/2021/03/19/977879589/yes-capitol-rioters... > The cop who shot Ashley Babbit was given “de facto immunity.” Video from inside the Capitol building showed her attempting to climb through a broken window outside the House chamber when the officer, who was guarding the entrance from the rioters, fired. As in, while committing a crime. Not through the *side* window of a car. > Half the country is outraged that leftists think just because they don’t like immigration law, as it is written and voted for, that it’s okay to obstruct deportations and drive vehicles into innocent ICE officers doing their job. Read this carefully: Side. Window. She (Renne Good) did not, and could not, have been driving the car into the person who shot her through the side window. Because, and I don't know if this is news to you, cars do not drive sideways. > If Oklahoma declared itself a sanctuary state from unions and declared it didn’t have to adhere labor law would you agree with their right to do so? If Salt Lake City decided to be a sanctuary for polygamy and underage marriage and started obstructing the FBI when they came in to arrest people would you be cheering? What about! What about! What about! The current administration is violating your own constitution. The behaviour of ICE is unlawful within your own rules. > Imagine the chaos if every city just ignored the laws they don’t like. I don't need to imagine, it looks like Trump. > Calling each other facists and nazis is just lazy, inaccurate, and an excuse for elevating oneself over ones political opponents. There are bronze plaques on the ground in my city dedicated to the victims of fascism. I don't speak for others, but I tell you this myself: Trump has been following the same footsteps as those whose dishonour is memorialised by the names of their victims upon those plaques.
    - 8mo ago

smilliken 8mo ago

That strategy may be cathartic, but it will have the opposite of the desired effect. If there's any hope of changing someone's mind, it has to start by respecting their opinion no matter how wrong you think it is. If you start a fight you'll get a fight.

bicx 8mo ago
I agree. Trying to punish will just deepen resentment, and they will live in their echo chamber while you live in yours. Then it's just side vs side, with the pundits leading the dialog. We have to remember that we aren't all working from the same perceptual or moral framework. This is a struggle for me, as I love my parents but our believes have diverged considerably. I think the challenge right now in the U.S. is that for many, it doesn't feel socially safe to question your own side. In reality, we need to feel free to judge actions individually, and judge leaders as a true accumulation of their actions. If we fear rejection from our party/family/friends for not walking in lock-step with the official party stances, that influences a lot of our thinking. No one wants to feel continually guilty about their own views (especially when there are social consequences for changing them), so we often shove aside conflicting details, make jokes, and signal to others that we're still a part of the tribe. It sucks.
tremon 8mo ago
I'm sorry, but some opinions are not worth respecting. People who e.g. excuse the genocide in Gaza, deny what happened in Tiananmen Square or who insist that the Jan6 insurrections were "just tourists" should not receive a participation trophy.
afterburner 8mo ago
This may eventually work after a long effort, but in the meantime, the person with the fascist thoughts will be deriving social support from you not having cut them off. "Haha, I love fascism, and Bill still likes me and hangs out with me, so I guess I'm good!"