8 ms·

I wish Europe would just push back. More than what they are currently. There is so much potential there, but somehow the EU all look at the US as some form of i

I wish Europe would just push back. More than what they are currently. There is so much potential there, but somehow the EU all look at the US as some form of idealogical father figure. Excuse the hyperbolic-talk.

palata 8mo ago
I don't think it is true. It's like saying "I wish those kids didn't let the bigger one bully them". The reason the bully is bullying is because he is in a position to do it. The EU is being careful because the US are more powerful.
- Trasmatta 8mo ago
  Trump has repeatedly backed off when he's challenged. It's happened time and time again. It's the reason TACO is a thing. The best strategy against him is to be relentless about pushing back, even if on paper the US is more powerful.
  - komali2 8mo ago
    It seems you can also just lie to help him save face, like Canada did when it agreed it would adopt very strict border control policies to stop "drugs coming into the USA," and listed out steps that all were just existent Canadian laws and policies.
    - Trasmatta 8mo ago
      Yeah, another strategy is to just give him something he can claim as a W even if it's bullshit, or to glaze him enough. He's so hyperfixated on owning Greenland though, that I'm not sure those will work this time.
    - jonathanstrange 8mo ago
      The problem that US generals have right now is that Trump has gotten the idea that the US (viz., he himself, in his mind) ought to literally own Greenland and he does know how real estate works. Treaties, mineral deals, guarantees for additional military bases that would mean de facto control over Greenland would work with a rational person. However, they won't work with someone who insists on buying or annexing a country to own its territory.
  - microtonal 8mo ago
    Large fractions inside the EP have already said that they won't sign the new US-EU trade deal next week: https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-us-trade-deal-on-hold-after-new-trump-tariffs/ https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-us-trade-deal-on-hold-aft... This effectively means the end of the 0 percent tariff on US products. There are also already calls in the EP to activate the Anti-Coercion Instrument: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Coercion_Instrument https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Coercion_Instrument
bpodgursky 8mo ago
The EU has a huge strategic problem because they let their own defenses and industry rot for decades and can't functionally stand alone against Russia, US pressure, and Chinese economic infiltration / industrial replacement at the same time. At least, not without great sacrifices the population isn't willing to make, like pension reform. So they are playing gentle with the US because it's the least bad choice right now.
- tpm 8mo ago
  > can't functionally stand alone against Russia, US pressure, and Chinese economic infiltration / industrial replacement at the same time. No country in the world can do that. That's not a consequence of 'they let their own defenses and industry rot for decades'.
  - bpodgursky 8mo ago
    The EU is 450 million people! It's the size of the entire continent of south america! It was the richest part of the world for centuries! They absolutely should be able to function as an independent block with international trade for convenience and not survival.
    - tpm 8mo ago
      Great, but standing against Russia, the US and China at the same time? Come on.
      - aebtebeten 8mo ago
        That may actually be an advantage: position Europe as a neutral block that trades with everybody, and it may actually be valuable enough as a neutral that anytime one of those three has designs on it, the other two would naturally have to combine to thwart them.
      - ofrzeta 8mo ago
        FWIW I don't think they need to stand against China.
bootsmann 8mo ago
The problem is NATO, a lot of the EU is reluctant to push back because at the end of the day the US guarantees that Russia cannot pursue the type of landgrab it is currently trying to do in Ukraine against other states. The risk that the US runs into when trying to take Greenland is that this argument loses weight instantly, so the expectation is that the EU will be much more willing to use its anti coercion tools if Trump tries to make it a reality.
- hermanzegerman 8mo ago
  Russia already fails in Ukraine where they are fighting with our old junk, and the other EU States are kicking their defense industry in full gear. What makes you think they could win a full scale war against the EU
  - cudgy 8mo ago
    Old junk? Drones are old junk? Do you even understand what a full scale war with Russia entails? Total annihilation of Europe for starters.
    - defrost 8mo ago
      I guess your position is that Russia is not at "full scale war" with Ukraine then. Currently that entails "large drone attacks" that kill two and injure dozens. That's a little short of the full scale war Russia could wield in WWI and WWII.
      - cudgy 8mo ago
        You might want to check some reliable sources about how the war is going for Ukraine, because it seems like you think they are kicking some Russian bootie, which is simply not the case. Take the US (and risk of mutual worldwide nuclear contamination) out of the equation and Ukraine would be in even worse shape.
        8mo ago
pessimizer 8mo ago
The fact is that there is no potential there. Europe has no leverage over the US. It is not holding back anything, it has nothing. Somehow when the US went to war with Russia, it ended up completing the conquest of Europe. Europe used to just be stagnant. Now it is stagnant and isolated from everywhere except the US, and the US treats it accordingly.
- saubeidl 8mo ago
  Europe has, in no particular order: - ASML - Nukes - Large proportion of US bonds - One of the wealthiest and most profitable markets in the world - The world's largest trade network - currently aggressively expanding into LatAm with the Mercosur deal despite Trump's Monroe 2.0 ambitions. Just a few off the the top of my head. There's plenty leverage there.
  - instig007 8mo ago
    > ASML Who's the customer base of ASML? Are they predominantly based in Europe?
    - piva00 8mo ago
      They are predominantly Taiwan, and South Korea.
  - ofrzeta 8mo ago
    ASML is also hostage as well. https://nationalinterest.org/blog/techland/asml-gives-europe-the-power-to-challenge-us-unreliability https://nationalinterest.org/blog/techland/asml-gives-europe... Although the articles also claims that "ASML has already started to reduce its dependence on American technology".
    - instig007 8mo ago
      > ASML relies on the United States for several of its components, and it’s this very reliance that has allowed the United States to use the Foreign Direct Product Rule and impose export controls on ASML products. However, there are signs of a shift. ASML has already started to reduce its dependence on American technology, aligning with the EU’s goal of strategic autonomy. Earlier this month, ASML announced a major investment in Mistral, France’s flagship AI startup. The Dutch firm invested $1.5 billion in Mistral, becoming the company’s largest shareholder. The deal was widely seen by policymakers as a move that strengthens European ‘digital sovereignty.’ In a sector dominated by American tech giants, ASML’s Mistral investment represents a growing realization from Europe: cooperation within the bloc is necessary for the EU to stay competitive in the AI race. --- I don't follow, how exactly does the investment into a French AI startup reduce ASML's "dependence on American technology"? Is it a supply-chain dependence, or a revenue-making dependence?
lyu07282 8mo ago
It's like when every liberal scoffs at leftists opposing US imperialism, nothing about the power balance has changed. Europe was always a vassal of the empire. This is the liberal international order, this is what that means, not what they tell you it means, but what it actually means. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_international_order https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_international_order That's why they can kidnap Maduro, have the BBC censor the word "kidnapped" in their reporting on it. Have every European politician applaud it, point to Maduros case against him at the ICC and have Netanyahu fly over France. You can't do anything about Greenland, the same way you can't do anything when he comes for Norways state-owned extraction industry next. Liberals can scream hypocrisy tears all they want, this is the world they built. The empire is coming home.
- DustinEchoes 8mo ago
  Leftists can go eat shit. They spent over a year convincing people not to vote for Kamala. Their preferred candidate won!
  - lyu07282 8mo ago
    Leftists wanted her to not be a dog shit politician in order for her to win, they were screaming for her to embrace real substantive policy positions and not business as usual, corrupt, liberal elitism. The same leftists are now in the street protecting communities from the gastapo, while liberals debate about which words they can say. It were those exact liberal politics that lost Hillary the election too, and then you were screaming too about how it was all Bernie's fault. For christ sake, Trump was able to sell himself as the PEACE CANDIDATE, how can you fuck this up so badly?
    - SpicyLemonZest 8mo ago
      I just don't understand the perspective that Trump is a historical threat and therefore we can't accept business as usual. I have a number of disagreements with the status quo myself, but I'm not going to pursue them until Trump is out of power, because I want to absolutely minimize the number of people who feel they have to choose between supporting Trump and abandoning some principle of theirs. To me, any other strategy seems tantamount to saying that Trump isn't so bad.
blibble 8mo ago
they can't back down on this one if the moron continues, we will go to the brink
MrDresden 8mo ago
The EU is the more reasonable actor here. Making a reactionary move, even one that would feel good, wouldn't be the best move. The USA is in the process of systematically demolishing it's soft power around the world. The EU is like a super tanker that takes a long time turning and, make no mistake, it is turning away from the USA. The push back will be felt for years and decades.

palata 8mo ago

I don't think it is true. It's like saying "I wish those kids didn't let the bigger one bully them". The reason the bully is bullying is because he is in a position to do it. The EU is being careful because the US are more powerful.

Trasmatta 8mo ago
Trump has repeatedly backed off when he's challenged. It's happened time and time again. It's the reason TACO is a thing. The best strategy against him is to be relentless about pushing back, even if on paper the US is more powerful.
- komali2 8mo ago
  It seems you can also just lie to help him save face, like Canada did when it agreed it would adopt very strict border control policies to stop "drugs coming into the USA," and listed out steps that all were just existent Canadian laws and policies.
  - Trasmatta 8mo ago
    Yeah, another strategy is to just give him something he can claim as a W even if it's bullshit, or to glaze him enough. He's so hyperfixated on owning Greenland though, that I'm not sure those will work this time.
  - jonathanstrange 8mo ago
    The problem that US generals have right now is that Trump has gotten the idea that the US (viz., he himself, in his mind) ought to literally own Greenland and he does know how real estate works. Treaties, mineral deals, guarantees for additional military bases that would mean de facto control over Greenland would work with a rational person. However, they won't work with someone who insists on buying or annexing a country to own its territory.
- microtonal 8mo ago
  Large fractions inside the EP have already said that they won't sign the new US-EU trade deal next week: https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-us-trade-deal-on-hold-after-new-trump-tariffs/ https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-us-trade-deal-on-hold-aft... This effectively means the end of the 0 percent tariff on US products. There are also already calls in the EP to activate the Anti-Coercion Instrument: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Coercion_Instrument https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Coercion_Instrument

bpodgursky 8mo ago

The EU has a huge strategic problem because they let their own defenses and industry rot for decades and can't functionally stand alone against Russia, US pressure, and Chinese economic infiltration / industrial replacement at the same time. At least, not without great sacrifices the population isn't willing to make, like pension reform. So they are playing gentle with the US because it's the least bad choice right now.

tpm 8mo ago
> can't functionally stand alone against Russia, US pressure, and Chinese economic infiltration / industrial replacement at the same time. No country in the world can do that. That's not a consequence of 'they let their own defenses and industry rot for decades'.
- bpodgursky 8mo ago
  The EU is 450 million people! It's the size of the entire continent of south america! It was the richest part of the world for centuries! They absolutely should be able to function as an independent block with international trade for convenience and not survival.
  - tpm 8mo ago
    Great, but standing against Russia, the US and China at the same time? Come on.
    - aebtebeten 8mo ago
      That may actually be an advantage: position Europe as a neutral block that trades with everybody, and it may actually be valuable enough as a neutral that anytime one of those three has designs on it, the other two would naturally have to combine to thwart them.
    - ofrzeta 8mo ago
      FWIW I don't think they need to stand against China.

bootsmann 8mo ago

The problem is NATO, a lot of the EU is reluctant to push back because at the end of the day the US guarantees that Russia cannot pursue the type of landgrab it is currently trying to do in Ukraine against other states. The risk that the US runs into when trying to take Greenland is that this argument loses weight instantly, so the expectation is that the EU will be much more willing to use its anti coercion tools if Trump tries to make it a reality.

hermanzegerman 8mo ago
Russia already fails in Ukraine where they are fighting with our old junk, and the other EU States are kicking their defense industry in full gear. What makes you think they could win a full scale war against the EU
- cudgy 8mo ago
  Old junk? Drones are old junk? Do you even understand what a full scale war with Russia entails? Total annihilation of Europe for starters.
  - defrost 8mo ago
    I guess your position is that Russia is not at "full scale war" with Ukraine then. Currently that entails "large drone attacks" that kill two and injure dozens. That's a little short of the full scale war Russia could wield in WWI and WWII.
    - cudgy 8mo ago
      You might want to check some reliable sources about how the war is going for Ukraine, because it seems like you think they are kicking some Russian bootie, which is simply not the case. Take the US (and risk of mutual worldwide nuclear contamination) out of the equation and Ukraine would be in even worse shape.
      - 8mo ago

pessimizer 8mo ago

The fact is that there is no potential there. Europe has no leverage over the US. It is not holding back anything, it has nothing. Somehow when the US went to war with Russia, it ended up completing the conquest of Europe. Europe used to just be stagnant. Now it is stagnant and isolated from everywhere except the US, and the US treats it accordingly.

saubeidl 8mo ago
Europe has, in no particular order: - ASML - Nukes - Large proportion of US bonds - One of the wealthiest and most profitable markets in the world - The world's largest trade network - currently aggressively expanding into LatAm with the Mercosur deal despite Trump's Monroe 2.0 ambitions. Just a few off the the top of my head. There's plenty leverage there.
- instig007 8mo ago
  > ASML Who's the customer base of ASML? Are they predominantly based in Europe?
  - piva00 8mo ago
    They are predominantly Taiwan, and South Korea.
- ofrzeta 8mo ago
  ASML is also hostage as well. https://nationalinterest.org/blog/techland/asml-gives-europe-the-power-to-challenge-us-unreliability https://nationalinterest.org/blog/techland/asml-gives-europe... Although the articles also claims that "ASML has already started to reduce its dependence on American technology".
  - instig007 8mo ago
    > ASML relies on the United States for several of its components, and it’s this very reliance that has allowed the United States to use the Foreign Direct Product Rule and impose export controls on ASML products. However, there are signs of a shift. ASML has already started to reduce its dependence on American technology, aligning with the EU’s goal of strategic autonomy. Earlier this month, ASML announced a major investment in Mistral, France’s flagship AI startup. The Dutch firm invested $1.5 billion in Mistral, becoming the company’s largest shareholder. The deal was widely seen by policymakers as a move that strengthens European ‘digital sovereignty.’ In a sector dominated by American tech giants, ASML’s Mistral investment represents a growing realization from Europe: cooperation within the bloc is necessary for the EU to stay competitive in the AI race. --- I don't follow, how exactly does the investment into a French AI startup reduce ASML's "dependence on American technology"? Is it a supply-chain dependence, or a revenue-making dependence?

lyu07282 8mo ago

It's like when every liberal scoffs at leftists opposing US imperialism, nothing about the power balance has changed. Europe was always a vassal of the empire. This is the liberal international order, this is what that means, not what they tell you it means, but what it actually means. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_international_order https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_international_order That's why they can kidnap Maduro, have the BBC censor the word "kidnapped" in their reporting on it. Have every European politician applaud it, point to Maduros case against him at the ICC and have Netanyahu fly over France. You can't do anything about Greenland, the same way you can't do anything when he comes for Norways state-owned extraction industry next. Liberals can scream hypocrisy tears all they want, this is the world they built. The empire is coming home.

DustinEchoes 8mo ago
Leftists can go eat shit. They spent over a year convincing people not to vote for Kamala. Their preferred candidate won!
- lyu07282 8mo ago
  Leftists wanted her to not be a dog shit politician in order for her to win, they were screaming for her to embrace real substantive policy positions and not business as usual, corrupt, liberal elitism. The same leftists are now in the street protecting communities from the gastapo, while liberals debate about which words they can say. It were those exact liberal politics that lost Hillary the election too, and then you were screaming too about how it was all Bernie's fault. For christ sake, Trump was able to sell himself as the PEACE CANDIDATE, how can you fuck this up so badly?
  - SpicyLemonZest 8mo ago
    I just don't understand the perspective that Trump is a historical threat and therefore we can't accept business as usual. I have a number of disagreements with the status quo myself, but I'm not going to pursue them until Trump is out of power, because I want to absolutely minimize the number of people who feel they have to choose between supporting Trump and abandoning some principle of theirs. To me, any other strategy seems tantamount to saying that Trump isn't so bad.

blibble 8mo ago

they can't back down on this one if the moron continues, we will go to the brink

MrDresden 8mo ago

The EU is the more reasonable actor here. Making a reactionary move, even one that would feel good, wouldn't be the best move. The USA is in the process of systematically demolishing it's soft power around the world. The EU is like a super tanker that takes a long time turning and, make no mistake, it is turning away from the USA. The push back will be felt for years and decades.