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I wonder, seeing the immense growth in 2023/2024, how that correlates with the ladybird project, which officially started in 2024. Could Manifest v3 be the rea

I wonder, seeing the immense growth in 2023/2024, how that correlates with the ladybird project, which officially started in 2024. Could Manifest v3 be the reason we have so much fresh air blowing in the browser ecosystem or does it just stem from a general unhappiness of said ecosystem?

azertify 8mo ago
I think that Ladybird has driven a lot of the effort, otherwise we'd just see browsers continuing to use Chromium with backports to allow v2 being worked on. Ladybird was already progressing rapidly within SerenityOS well before it was officially launched, and I think that's given people a new inspiration for how plausible it is to create a browser from scratch. I'm really pleased we're seeing Servo having a resurgence too.
- p-e-w 8mo ago
  It’s indeed rapidly progressing feature-wise, but I have yet to see an explanation for how they intend to manage security once market adoption happens. Ladybird is written in C++, which is memory-unsafe by default (unlike Rust, which is memory-safe by default). Firefox and Chrome also use C++, and each of them has 3-4 critical vulnerabilities related to memory safety per year, despite the massive resources Mozilla and Google have invested in security. I don’t understand how the Ladybird team could possibly hope to secure a C++ browser engine, given that even engineering giants have consistently failed to do so.
  - jsheard 8mo ago
    > Firefox and Chrome also use C++, and each of them has 3-4 critical vulnerabilities related to memory safety per year, despite the massive resources Mozilla and Google have invested in security. And part of Firefox/Chromes security effort has been to use memory safe languages in critical sections like file format decoders. They're far too deeply invested in C++ to move away entirely in our lifetimes, but they are taking advantage of other languages where they feasibly can, so to write a new browser in pure C++ is a regression from what the big players are already doing.
  - binary132 8mo ago
    Ladybird is going to use Swift.
    - torginus 8mo ago
      If I remember correctly, the guy behind it used to work at Apple, maybe that has to do something with it?
      - binary132 8mo ago
        perhaps they do not think Rust is the best option for Ladybird
    - boxed 8mo ago
      That is very good news! I've used Swift a bunch for hobby projects, and the two things that suck about it are: 1. XCode 2. Compile times I would assume if you're coming from C++ or Rust the compile time issues aren't really something you notice anyway :P
      - quux 8mo ago
        You don't strictly have to use Xcode to use swift, there's a good LSP for use in other editors. That said, if you're using Swift to build an app, you're probably still going to want to use Xcode for building and debugging
        boxed 8mo ago
        Yea, I'm building iOS apps mostly, and some macOS apps, so definitely need to use XCode :/
        quux 8mo ago
        I have a nice workflow going for the iOS apps I work on where I use neovim for all my editing, and Xcode for building and debugging.
    - 8mo ago
  - torginus 8mo ago
    I just checked out Servo, and like all browsers it has a VERY large footprint of dependencies (notably GStreamer/GOject, libpng/jpeg, PCRE). Considering browsers have quite the decent process isolation (the whole browser process vs heavily sandboxed renderer processes), I wonder how tangible the Rust advantage turns out to be.
    - p-e-w 8mo ago
      Browsers have had sandboxing for well over a decade, and the 3-4 catastrophic vulnerabilities per year happen in spite of that. And most of them are in the browser code itself, not in dependencies. By far the biggest offender tends to be the JavaScript engine.
      - torginus 8mo ago
        Are you sure? I just looked at the top CVEs for chrome in 2025. There are 5 which allow excaping the sandbox, and the top ones seem to be V8 bugs where the JIT is coaxed into generating exploitable code. One seems to be a genuine use-after-free. So I can echo what you wrote about the JS engine being most exploitable, but how is Rust supposed to help with generating memory-safe JITed code?
        p-e-w 8mo ago
        Like this: https://github.com/nbp/holyjit https://github.com/nbp/holyjit
silotis 8mo ago
The increased activity came from Igalia who started working on Servo in 2023 with support from the Linux Foundation. Prior to that the project was effectively dead in the water with no sponsored development.
- Vinnl 8mo ago
  And Igalia is notable for contributing to every major browser engine: https://www.igalia.com/2026/01/05/Doing-Our-Share-for-the-Web-in-2025.html https://www.igalia.com/2026/01/05/Doing-Our-Share-for-the-We...
- N-Krause 8mo ago
  But the question still remains, why did Igalia pick up a dead project? I doubt you'd invest that kind of money/time into a project without a good reason. I am not saying that ladybird or manifest v3 are the reason, I just notice a lot of new energy in the not-just-chrome category and wonder what the other reasons might be. Andreas Kling is pretty open about his reasons to have started the ladybird project and I just know Servo from his monthly videos and a few other sidenotes, so I was surprised that it gained so much traction after being basically dead.
  - senko 8mo ago
    > But the question still remains, why did Igalia pick up a dead project? > I doubt you'd invest that kind of money/time into a project without a good reason. Igalia is a very peculiar company. I would not rule out "it's a good thing for the commons and we bet we'll get some upside eventually" as the reason.
  - nicoburns 8mo ago
    > But the question still remains, why did Igalia pick up a dead project? Igalia is generally pro open-source, and Servo certainly aligns with their ethos, but a lot of the money came from Futurewei / Huawei who are interested in Servo because it's not US based, and therefore they are actually able to contribute to it (they are effectively banned from contributing to Chrome/Firefox/Safari due to US sanctions). There is now also funding from the Sovereign Tech Fund who are also interested in a "European browser" (and NLnet, but they fund all sorts of things)

azertify 8mo ago

I think that Ladybird has driven a lot of the effort, otherwise we'd just see browsers continuing to use Chromium with backports to allow v2 being worked on. Ladybird was already progressing rapidly within SerenityOS well before it was officially launched, and I think that's given people a new inspiration for how plausible it is to create a browser from scratch. I'm really pleased we're seeing Servo having a resurgence too.

p-e-w 8mo ago
It’s indeed rapidly progressing feature-wise, but I have yet to see an explanation for how they intend to manage security once market adoption happens. Ladybird is written in C++, which is memory-unsafe by default (unlike Rust, which is memory-safe by default). Firefox and Chrome also use C++, and each of them has 3-4 critical vulnerabilities related to memory safety per year, despite the massive resources Mozilla and Google have invested in security. I don’t understand how the Ladybird team could possibly hope to secure a C++ browser engine, given that even engineering giants have consistently failed to do so.
- jsheard 8mo ago
  > Firefox and Chrome also use C++, and each of them has 3-4 critical vulnerabilities related to memory safety per year, despite the massive resources Mozilla and Google have invested in security. And part of Firefox/Chromes security effort has been to use memory safe languages in critical sections like file format decoders. They're far too deeply invested in C++ to move away entirely in our lifetimes, but they are taking advantage of other languages where they feasibly can, so to write a new browser in pure C++ is a regression from what the big players are already doing.
- binary132 8mo ago
  Ladybird is going to use Swift.
  - torginus 8mo ago
    If I remember correctly, the guy behind it used to work at Apple, maybe that has to do something with it?
    - binary132 8mo ago
      perhaps they do not think Rust is the best option for Ladybird
  - boxed 8mo ago
    That is very good news! I've used Swift a bunch for hobby projects, and the two things that suck about it are: 1. XCode 2. Compile times I would assume if you're coming from C++ or Rust the compile time issues aren't really something you notice anyway :P
    - quux 8mo ago
      You don't strictly have to use Xcode to use swift, there's a good LSP for use in other editors. That said, if you're using Swift to build an app, you're probably still going to want to use Xcode for building and debugging
      - boxed 8mo ago
        Yea, I'm building iOS apps mostly, and some macOS apps, so definitely need to use XCode :/
        quux 8mo ago
        I have a nice workflow going for the iOS apps I work on where I use neovim for all my editing, and Xcode for building and debugging.
  - 8mo ago
- torginus 8mo ago
  I just checked out Servo, and like all browsers it has a VERY large footprint of dependencies (notably GStreamer/GOject, libpng/jpeg, PCRE). Considering browsers have quite the decent process isolation (the whole browser process vs heavily sandboxed renderer processes), I wonder how tangible the Rust advantage turns out to be.
  - p-e-w 8mo ago
    Browsers have had sandboxing for well over a decade, and the 3-4 catastrophic vulnerabilities per year happen in spite of that. And most of them are in the browser code itself, not in dependencies. By far the biggest offender tends to be the JavaScript engine.
    - torginus 8mo ago
      Are you sure? I just looked at the top CVEs for chrome in 2025. There are 5 which allow excaping the sandbox, and the top ones seem to be V8 bugs where the JIT is coaxed into generating exploitable code. One seems to be a genuine use-after-free. So I can echo what you wrote about the JS engine being most exploitable, but how is Rust supposed to help with generating memory-safe JITed code?
      - p-e-w 8mo ago
        Like this: https://github.com/nbp/holyjit https://github.com/nbp/holyjit

silotis 8mo ago

The increased activity came from Igalia who started working on Servo in 2023 with support from the Linux Foundation. Prior to that the project was effectively dead in the water with no sponsored development.

Vinnl 8mo ago
And Igalia is notable for contributing to every major browser engine: https://www.igalia.com/2026/01/05/Doing-Our-Share-for-the-Web-in-2025.html https://www.igalia.com/2026/01/05/Doing-Our-Share-for-the-We...
N-Krause 8mo ago
But the question still remains, why did Igalia pick up a dead project? I doubt you'd invest that kind of money/time into a project without a good reason. I am not saying that ladybird or manifest v3 are the reason, I just notice a lot of new energy in the not-just-chrome category and wonder what the other reasons might be. Andreas Kling is pretty open about his reasons to have started the ladybird project and I just know Servo from his monthly videos and a few other sidenotes, so I was surprised that it gained so much traction after being basically dead.
- senko 8mo ago
  > But the question still remains, why did Igalia pick up a dead project? > I doubt you'd invest that kind of money/time into a project without a good reason. Igalia is a very peculiar company. I would not rule out "it's a good thing for the commons and we bet we'll get some upside eventually" as the reason.
- nicoburns 8mo ago
  > But the question still remains, why did Igalia pick up a dead project? Igalia is generally pro open-source, and Servo certainly aligns with their ethos, but a lot of the money came from Futurewei / Huawei who are interested in Servo because it's not US based, and therefore they are actually able to contribute to it (they are effectively banned from contributing to Chrome/Firefox/Safari due to US sanctions). There is now also funding from the Sovereign Tech Fund who are also interested in a "European browser" (and NLnet, but they fund all sorts of things)