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Hi, I am Francis, founder of Lightpanda. We wrote a full article explaining why we choose Zig over Rust or C++, if you are interested: https://lightpanda.io/blo

Hi, I am Francis, founder of Lightpanda. We wrote a full article explaining why we choose Zig over Rust or C++, if you are interested: https://lightpanda.io/blog/posts/why-we-built-lightpanda-in-zig https://lightpanda.io/blog/posts/why-we-built-lightpanda-in-... Our goal is to build a headless browser, rather than a general purpose browser like Servo or Chrome. It's already available if you would like to try it: https://lightpanda.io/docs/open-source/installation https://lightpanda.io/docs/open-source/installation

barishnamazov 8mo ago
Thanks Francis, appreciate the nice & honest write-up with the thought process (while keeping it brief).
parhamn 8mo ago
Off topic note: I read the website and a few pages of the docs and it's unclear to me for what I can use LightPanda safely. Like say I wanted to swap my it as my engine on playwright, what are the tradeoffs? What things are implemented, what isnt?
- h33t-l4x0r 8mo ago
  I think it's really more of an alternative to JSDom than it is an alternative to Chromium. It's not going to fool any websites that care about bots into thinking it's a real browser in other words.
- fbouvier 8mo ago
  Thanks for the feedback, we will try to make this clearer on the website. Lightpanda works with Playwright, and we have some docs[1] and examples[2] available. Web APIs and CDP specifications are huge, so this is still a work in progess. Many websites and scripts already work, while others do not, it really depends on the case. For example, on the CDP side, we are currently working on adding an Accessibility tree implentation. [1] https://lightpanda.io/docs/quickstart/build-your-first-extraction-script https://lightpanda.io/docs/quickstart/build-your-first-extra... [2] https://github.com/lightpanda-io/demo/tree/main/playwright https://github.com/lightpanda-io/demo/tree/main/playwright
  - epolanski 8mo ago
    I was actually interested into using lightpanda for E2Es to be honest, because halving the feedback cycle would be very valuable to me.
  - infogulch 8mo ago
    Maybe you should recommend a recipe for configuring playwright with both chromium and lightpanda backends so a given project can compare and evaluate whether lightpanda could work given their existing test cases.
nicoburns 8mo ago
I see you're using html5ever for HTML parsing, and like it's trait/callback based API (me too). It looks like style/layout is not in scope at the moment, but if you're ever looking at adding style/layout capabilities to lightpanda, then you may find it useful to know that Stylo [0] (CSS / style system) and Taffy [1] (box-level layout) are both avaiable with a similar style of API (also Parley [2] which has a slightly different API style but can be combined with Taffy to implement inline/text layout). [0]: https://github.com/servo/stylo https://github.com/servo/stylo [1]: https://github.com/DioxusLabs/taffy https://github.com/DioxusLabs/taffy [2]: https://github.com/linebender/parley https://github.com/linebender/parley --- Also, if you're interested in contributing C bindings for html5ever upstream then let me know / maybe open a github issue.
quotemstr 8mo ago
Choosing something like Zig over C++ on simplicity grounds is going to be a false economy. C++ features exist for a reason. The complexity is in the domain. You can't make a project simpler by using a simplistic language: the complexity asserts itself somehow, somewhere, and if a language can't express the concept you want, you'll end up with circumlocution "patterns" instead. Build system complexity disappears when you set it up too. Meson and such can be as terse as your Curl example. I mean, it's your project, so whatever. Do what you want. But choosing Zig for the stated reasons is like choosing a car for the shape of the cupholders.
- hnlmorg 8mo ago
  That’s not fully true though. There’s different types of complexity: - project requirements - requirements forced upon you due to how the business is structured - libraries available for a particular language ecosystem - paradigms / abstractions that a language is optimised for - team experiences Your argument is more akin to saying “all general purpose languages are equal” which I’m sure you’d agree is false. And likewise, complexity can and will manifest itself differently depending on language, problems being solved, and developer preferences for different styles of software development. So yes, C++ complexity exists for a reason (though I’d personally argue that “reason” was due to “design by committee”). But that doesn’t mean that reason is directly applicable to the problems the LightPanda team are concerned about solving.
- vegabook 8mo ago
  C++ features for complexity management are not ergonomic though, with multiple conflicting ideas from different eras competing with each other. Sometimes demolition and rebuild from foundations is paradoxically simpler.
- meheleventyone 8mo ago
  > C++ features exist for a reason. But sometimes not good ones. Lot's of domains make tradeoffs about what features of C++ to actually make use of. It's an old language with a lot of cruft being used across a wide set of problems that don't necessarily share engineering trade offs.
- 8mo ago
Jweb_Guru 8mo ago
Respectfully, for browser-based work, simplicity is absolutely not a good enough reason to use a memory-unsafe language. Your claim that Zig is in some way safer than Rust for something like this is flat out untrue.
- hello_moto 8mo ago
  In that blog post, the author said safer than C not Rust.
- dnautics 8mo ago
  What is your attack model here? Each request lives in its own arena allocator, so there is no way for any potentially malicious JavaScript to escape and read memory owned by any other request, even if there is a miscode. otherwise, VM safety is delegated to the V8 core.
  - Jweb_Guru 8mo ago
    Believe it or not, using arenas does not provide free memory safety. You need to statically bound allocations to make sure they don't escape the arena (which is exactly how arenas work in Rust, but not Zig). There are also quite a lot of ways of generating memory unsafe code that aren't just use after free or array-out-of-bounds in a language like Zig, especially in the context of stuff like DOM nodes where one frequently needs to swap out pointers between elements of one type and a different type.
nwienert 8mo ago
Would be helpful to compare Lightpanda to Webkit, Playwright has a driver for example and its far faster and less resource hungry than Chrome. When I read your site copy it struck me as either naive to that, or a somewhat misleading comparison, my feedback would be just to address it directly alongside Chrome.
aatd86 8mo ago
Would be great if it could be used as a wasm library... Just saying... Is it? I would actually need and use this.

barishnamazov 8mo ago

Thanks Francis, appreciate the nice & honest write-up with the thought process (while keeping it brief).

parhamn 8mo ago

Off topic note: I read the website and a few pages of the docs and it's unclear to me for what I can use LightPanda safely. Like say I wanted to swap my it as my engine on playwright, what are the tradeoffs? What things are implemented, what isnt?

h33t-l4x0r 8mo ago
I think it's really more of an alternative to JSDom than it is an alternative to Chromium. It's not going to fool any websites that care about bots into thinking it's a real browser in other words.
fbouvier 8mo ago
Thanks for the feedback, we will try to make this clearer on the website. Lightpanda works with Playwright, and we have some docs[1] and examples[2] available. Web APIs and CDP specifications are huge, so this is still a work in progess. Many websites and scripts already work, while others do not, it really depends on the case. For example, on the CDP side, we are currently working on adding an Accessibility tree implentation. [1] https://lightpanda.io/docs/quickstart/build-your-first-extraction-script https://lightpanda.io/docs/quickstart/build-your-first-extra... [2] https://github.com/lightpanda-io/demo/tree/main/playwright https://github.com/lightpanda-io/demo/tree/main/playwright
- epolanski 8mo ago
  I was actually interested into using lightpanda for E2Es to be honest, because halving the feedback cycle would be very valuable to me.
- infogulch 8mo ago
  Maybe you should recommend a recipe for configuring playwright with both chromium and lightpanda backends so a given project can compare and evaluate whether lightpanda could work given their existing test cases.

nicoburns 8mo ago

I see you're using html5ever for HTML parsing, and like it's trait/callback based API (me too). It looks like style/layout is not in scope at the moment, but if you're ever looking at adding style/layout capabilities to lightpanda, then you may find it useful to know that Stylo [0] (CSS / style system) and Taffy [1] (box-level layout) are both avaiable with a similar style of API (also Parley [2] which has a slightly different API style but can be combined with Taffy to implement inline/text layout). [0]: https://github.com/servo/stylo https://github.com/servo/stylo [1]: https://github.com/DioxusLabs/taffy https://github.com/DioxusLabs/taffy [2]: https://github.com/linebender/parley https://github.com/linebender/parley --- Also, if you're interested in contributing C bindings for html5ever upstream then let me know / maybe open a github issue.

quotemstr 8mo ago

Choosing something like Zig over C++ on simplicity grounds is going to be a false economy. C++ features exist for a reason. The complexity is in the domain. You can't make a project simpler by using a simplistic language: the complexity asserts itself somehow, somewhere, and if a language can't express the concept you want, you'll end up with circumlocution "patterns" instead. Build system complexity disappears when you set it up too. Meson and such can be as terse as your Curl example. I mean, it's your project, so whatever. Do what you want. But choosing Zig for the stated reasons is like choosing a car for the shape of the cupholders.

hnlmorg 8mo ago
That’s not fully true though. There’s different types of complexity: - project requirements - requirements forced upon you due to how the business is structured - libraries available for a particular language ecosystem - paradigms / abstractions that a language is optimised for - team experiences Your argument is more akin to saying “all general purpose languages are equal” which I’m sure you’d agree is false. And likewise, complexity can and will manifest itself differently depending on language, problems being solved, and developer preferences for different styles of software development. So yes, C++ complexity exists for a reason (though I’d personally argue that “reason” was due to “design by committee”). But that doesn’t mean that reason is directly applicable to the problems the LightPanda team are concerned about solving.
vegabook 8mo ago
C++ features for complexity management are not ergonomic though, with multiple conflicting ideas from different eras competing with each other. Sometimes demolition and rebuild from foundations is paradoxically simpler.
meheleventyone 8mo ago
> C++ features exist for a reason. But sometimes not good ones. Lot's of domains make tradeoffs about what features of C++ to actually make use of. It's an old language with a lot of cruft being used across a wide set of problems that don't necessarily share engineering trade offs.
8mo ago

Jweb_Guru 8mo ago

Respectfully, for browser-based work, simplicity is absolutely not a good enough reason to use a memory-unsafe language. Your claim that Zig is in some way safer than Rust for something like this is flat out untrue.

hello_moto 8mo ago
In that blog post, the author said safer than C not Rust.
dnautics 8mo ago
What is your attack model here? Each request lives in its own arena allocator, so there is no way for any potentially malicious JavaScript to escape and read memory owned by any other request, even if there is a miscode. otherwise, VM safety is delegated to the V8 core.
- Jweb_Guru 8mo ago
  Believe it or not, using arenas does not provide free memory safety. You need to statically bound allocations to make sure they don't escape the arena (which is exactly how arenas work in Rust, but not Zig). There are also quite a lot of ways of generating memory unsafe code that aren't just use after free or array-out-of-bounds in a language like Zig, especially in the context of stuff like DOM nodes where one frequently needs to swap out pointers between elements of one type and a different type.

nwienert 8mo ago

Would be helpful to compare Lightpanda to Webkit, Playwright has a driver for example and its far faster and less resource hungry than Chrome. When I read your site copy it struck me as either naive to that, or a somewhat misleading comparison, my feedback would be just to address it directly alongside Chrome.

aatd86 8mo ago

Would be great if it could be used as a wasm library... Just saying... Is it? I would actually need and use this.