7 ms·

Circumcision classed as possible child abuse in draft CPS document

83 points by isomorph 8mo ago

Der_Einzige 8mo ago
[flagged]
- malfist 8mo ago
  I don't believe there are very many circumcision single issue voters
  - Der_Einzige 8mo ago
    That's because of the IRL SCP object! Destroy it and they will soon exist in droves!
  - bilbo0s 8mo ago
    You are shortsighted. What Trump has proven is that millions of single issue voters can be created on any issue if a political party desires it. Underestimating this reality will only keep political parties that depend on unwritten rules of decorum from winning more and more elections. There are now new unwritten rules of election issue decorum. Which is to say there are no longer any unspoken rules of election issue decorum. I'd strongly urge everyone to acclimate themselves to that reality sooner rather than later.
    - odyssey7 8mo ago
      I remember around 2016 seeing videos on social media of Clinton endorsing circumcision campaigns.
- soldthat 8mo ago
  WTF is a “Ketar class SCP object”?
- leggerss 8mo ago
  This is satire, right? Or reasoning by analogy... right?? I looked up "SCP object", and boy that was a rabbit hole. Interesting and entertaining, sure. But if you "fully believe" in anything on that website, please try to confirm your reality with observations or lived experience rather than text from the internet. Here's an excerpt from SCP's "Guide For Newcomers"[1]: > This is the SCP Foundation Wiki, a collaborative writing site based around the premise that… in essence, magic is real. It's not exactly like the traditional fantasy style magic you've come to know, but that's the best way we can describe the stuff we have here - Anomalies; items and critters that do not follow the rules of nature as we know them. Staircases that go on forever, mechanical gods from the beginning of time, otherwise regular humans who reshape reality with their mind: these are the kinds of things that, if known to the public, could cause mass hysteria and start wars on scales unprecedented. Due to that, there exists an organization called the SCP Foundation, whose job is to research paranormal activity, keep these creatures and objects concealed from the public, and protect humanity from the horrors of the dark. [1] https://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/guide-for-newcomers https://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/guide-for-newcomers
  - cramsession 8mo ago
    I don't believe in that and it sounds totally out there, yet it's far less extreme than infant genital mutilation.
    - Der_Einzige 8mo ago
      That's my point. Yes it's tongue-in-cheek. No I'm not an SCP version of a "furry" or "otherkin" who thinks that their make believe universe is real. It's an analogy for the INSANITY of the current acceptance of mass circumcision uncritically by the masses.
      - DoctorOetker 8mo ago
        You don't need a "Ketar class SCP object", simple conflict of interest from the Medical-Industrial Complex will do. All those skin banks could turn into liabilities instead of profit centers, since preservation of the product is also preservation of the evidence. A functioning government would waltz in, keep the power on, start sequencing the tissues and cells to identify at least some of the victims, and do this in a transparent and public way.
deleted 8mo ago
[deleted]
somewhereoutth 8mo ago
As it should be. However this practice has become deeply culturally ingrained, whether through religion or other custom, so it is going to be a hard slog to eradicate it worldwide.
- kyleee 8mo ago
  Definitely, and unfortunately. FGM is also on the rise in Europe :(
sporkxrocket 8mo ago
Good, it's barbaric child abuse. No other form of permanent body modification surgery (especially to genitals!) would be allowed on infants who can't consent. An adult wants to get circumcised? Go for it. It's pretty wild that we allow it on babies that can't even speak.
- FridayoLeary 8mo ago
  [flagged]
  - Fire-Dragon-DoL 8mo ago
    You cannot possibly know the alternative, since the the babies with the surgery performed will never know the alternative.
  - sporkxrocket 8mo ago
    Religion is a personal choice, not something your parents or anyone else can enforce on you with surgery.
  - 9x39 8mo ago
    > those that are happy it was done to them specifically as babies Who have no way to know whether they would prefer to not have it done. It’s not FGM, but it’s in the realm of it relative to reduced sensory ability.
    - wrsh07 8mo ago
      In general, I'm surprised by the vitriol in these comments. I think your claim proves too much: If you pick a different religion (my siblings and their kids are religious - not Jewish), you could similarly say "even though they're happy being raised in their religion, they have no way to know whether they would prefer to have been raised agnostic/atheist" (or some other religion) Of course that's true for many decisions parents make on behalf of their children. I am curious if folks in this thread are similarly incensed by young children having their ears pierced? It's obviously different, but it still seems like a cultural decision. To my knowledge (having only learned about it incidentally during the pregnancy/birthing process since it wasn't a relevant decision) it didn't seem like circumcision had strong medical recommendations for or against
FridayoLeary 8mo ago
[flagged]
- sporkxrocket 8mo ago
  The children being mutilated are not even able to consent to practicing a religion.
- brewcejener 8mo ago
  [dead]
- odyssey7 8mo ago
  Some people are traumatized by it. There have been suicides. These experiences never candidly enter public policy discourse, because keeping people from getting depressed etc. is important for productivity, birth rates, and trust in public institutions.
- limagnolia 8mo ago
  Polygamy is a fundamental religious practice by some religions too, but the US Supreme Court already ruled that the government can restrict it. (Though this article is talking about England and Wales... which also don't allow polygamy, so...) I think it would be better to have the debate on circumcision in the legislature/parliament, but I am not opposed to outlawing it.
- HiPhish 8mo ago
  > 7 deaths in 20 years out of who knows how many hundreds of thousands if anything is a testament to how safe the procedure is. That's still seven deaths too many for a surgery (without anesthetics!) which has no medical necessity. Tonsillectomy is also a very safe procedure, yet we don't just do them willy-nilly because any form of surgery carries its own risk, no matter how small.
brewcejener 8mo ago
[dead]
Fire-Dragon-DoL 8mo ago
> “enormously powerful symbolic act of identity”. That's revolting in a way. Identity OF THE PARENT, not of the baby who definitely doesn't know. And maybe the teenager doesn't want to have that identity, but now it's too late
- odyssey7 8mo ago
  Also: given the historic role of circumcision in religious and cultural conversion, one could view infant circumcision as removing that possibility for certain religious or cultural conversions later in life. In this sense, it might be viewed as culturally immunizing as well as being a cultural marker.
AndrewKemendo 8mo ago
Finally taking this seriously as what it is: religious genital mutilation
just_the_tip2 8mo ago
In 1996 the Federal Prohibition of Female Genital Mutilation Act made it illegal to perform FGM on minors for non-medical reasons, and in 2013 the Transport for Female Genital Mutilation Act prohibited transporting a minor out of the country for the purpose of FGM. Male genital mutilation on minors for non-medical reasons should also be made illegal. It is amazing Medicaid still pays for it in many states. The American Academy of Pediatrics is failing the United States.
- foxglacier 8mo ago
  [flagged]
  - GeoAtreides 8mo ago
    They're not different: they both irreversibly violate body autonomy for non-medical purposes.
    - IshKebab 8mo ago
      They're clearly different. FGM generally has much more severe consequences than circumcision. They should both be banned but FGM is clearly much worse.
      - Jensson 8mo ago
        > FGM generally has much more severe consequences than circumcision There are variants that are equivalent to circumcision, but those are banned as well. It is illegal to cut into female genitals and legal to cut into male genitals today. To stay consistent people should either support making some versions of FGM legal or make all versions of MGM illegal.
    - edanm 8mo ago
      So does getting your kid's ears pierced. So does fixing their teeth for aesthetic reasons.
kyleee 8mo ago
It should be, right along with FGM
HiPhish 8mo ago
I have seen babies with pierced ears and studs. Even when there is no religious pressure some people are just so sick in their head, they will have their babies put through mutilation just because they think it looks "cute". Those people deserve to have railroad spikes driven through their skin. I would advocate for banning all non-necessary body modification on small children. And before anyone tells me "it's better to do it when they are small, then they won't remember it": no remembering the source of a trauma makes is even worse. That's like saying date rape drugs are no big deal because the victim can't remember it.
- odyssey7 8mo ago
  There isn’t an equivalence between pierced ears, which is reversible, and circumcision, which is not.
DoctorOetker 8mo ago
the discussion got flagged why is it not possible to vouch for the discussion?
- edanm 8mo ago
  It is not possible to vouch for any discussion, afaik. Only comments.
  - DoctorOetker 8mo ago
    I asked "why" it is impossible not "if" it is.
- dang 8mo ago
  It's flagged but not dead. These are not the same thing. See https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html. Also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39676944 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39676944 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38918548 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38918548
- NedF 8mo ago
  [dead]
stranded22 8mo ago
Good. It is barbaric and mutilation.
deleted 8mo ago
[deleted]
attqqq 8mo ago
Baffling that male genital mutilation persists to this day due to momentum, misinformation, and a small religious niche alone. Really makes me think there’s an empathy gap between gendered issues. 1996 we got rid of FGM, yet 30 years later baby boys still get their tips of their penis cut off, often incorrectly/too far. Humbling reminder we really are a bunch of well dressed apes playing house, I forget that sometimes
mieses 8mo ago
hackers gonna hack

83 points by isomorph 8mo ago

Der_Einzige 8mo ago

[flagged]

malfist 8mo ago
I don't believe there are very many circumcision single issue voters
- Der_Einzige 8mo ago
  That's because of the IRL SCP object! Destroy it and they will soon exist in droves!
- bilbo0s 8mo ago
  You are shortsighted. What Trump has proven is that millions of single issue voters can be created on any issue if a political party desires it. Underestimating this reality will only keep political parties that depend on unwritten rules of decorum from winning more and more elections. There are now new unwritten rules of election issue decorum. Which is to say there are no longer any unspoken rules of election issue decorum. I'd strongly urge everyone to acclimate themselves to that reality sooner rather than later.
  - odyssey7 8mo ago
    I remember around 2016 seeing videos on social media of Clinton endorsing circumcision campaigns.
soldthat 8mo ago
WTF is a “Ketar class SCP object”?
leggerss 8mo ago
This is satire, right? Or reasoning by analogy... right?? I looked up "SCP object", and boy that was a rabbit hole. Interesting and entertaining, sure. But if you "fully believe" in anything on that website, please try to confirm your reality with observations or lived experience rather than text from the internet. Here's an excerpt from SCP's "Guide For Newcomers"[1]: > This is the SCP Foundation Wiki, a collaborative writing site based around the premise that… in essence, magic is real. It's not exactly like the traditional fantasy style magic you've come to know, but that's the best way we can describe the stuff we have here - Anomalies; items and critters that do not follow the rules of nature as we know them. Staircases that go on forever, mechanical gods from the beginning of time, otherwise regular humans who reshape reality with their mind: these are the kinds of things that, if known to the public, could cause mass hysteria and start wars on scales unprecedented. Due to that, there exists an organization called the SCP Foundation, whose job is to research paranormal activity, keep these creatures and objects concealed from the public, and protect humanity from the horrors of the dark. [1] https://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/guide-for-newcomers https://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/guide-for-newcomers
- cramsession 8mo ago
  I don't believe in that and it sounds totally out there, yet it's far less extreme than infant genital mutilation.
  - Der_Einzige 8mo ago
    That's my point. Yes it's tongue-in-cheek. No I'm not an SCP version of a "furry" or "otherkin" who thinks that their make believe universe is real. It's an analogy for the INSANITY of the current acceptance of mass circumcision uncritically by the masses.
    - DoctorOetker 8mo ago
      You don't need a "Ketar class SCP object", simple conflict of interest from the Medical-Industrial Complex will do. All those skin banks could turn into liabilities instead of profit centers, since preservation of the product is also preservation of the evidence. A functioning government would waltz in, keep the power on, start sequencing the tissues and cells to identify at least some of the victims, and do this in a transparent and public way.

deleted 8mo ago

[deleted]

somewhereoutth 8mo ago

As it should be. However this practice has become deeply culturally ingrained, whether through religion or other custom, so it is going to be a hard slog to eradicate it worldwide.

kyleee 8mo ago
Definitely, and unfortunately. FGM is also on the rise in Europe :(

sporkxrocket 8mo ago

Good, it's barbaric child abuse. No other form of permanent body modification surgery (especially to genitals!) would be allowed on infants who can't consent. An adult wants to get circumcised? Go for it. It's pretty wild that we allow it on babies that can't even speak.

FridayoLeary 8mo ago
[flagged]
- Fire-Dragon-DoL 8mo ago
  You cannot possibly know the alternative, since the the babies with the surgery performed will never know the alternative.
- sporkxrocket 8mo ago
  Religion is a personal choice, not something your parents or anyone else can enforce on you with surgery.
- 9x39 8mo ago
  > those that are happy it was done to them specifically as babies Who have no way to know whether they would prefer to not have it done. It’s not FGM, but it’s in the realm of it relative to reduced sensory ability.
  - wrsh07 8mo ago
    In general, I'm surprised by the vitriol in these comments. I think your claim proves too much: If you pick a different religion (my siblings and their kids are religious - not Jewish), you could similarly say "even though they're happy being raised in their religion, they have no way to know whether they would prefer to have been raised agnostic/atheist" (or some other religion) Of course that's true for many decisions parents make on behalf of their children. I am curious if folks in this thread are similarly incensed by young children having their ears pierced? It's obviously different, but it still seems like a cultural decision. To my knowledge (having only learned about it incidentally during the pregnancy/birthing process since it wasn't a relevant decision) it didn't seem like circumcision had strong medical recommendations for or against

FridayoLeary 8mo ago

[flagged]

sporkxrocket 8mo ago
The children being mutilated are not even able to consent to practicing a religion.
brewcejener 8mo ago
[dead]
odyssey7 8mo ago
Some people are traumatized by it. There have been suicides. These experiences never candidly enter public policy discourse, because keeping people from getting depressed etc. is important for productivity, birth rates, and trust in public institutions.
limagnolia 8mo ago
Polygamy is a fundamental religious practice by some religions too, but the US Supreme Court already ruled that the government can restrict it. (Though this article is talking about England and Wales... which also don't allow polygamy, so...) I think it would be better to have the debate on circumcision in the legislature/parliament, but I am not opposed to outlawing it.
HiPhish 8mo ago
> 7 deaths in 20 years out of who knows how many hundreds of thousands if anything is a testament to how safe the procedure is. That's still seven deaths too many for a surgery (without anesthetics!) which has no medical necessity. Tonsillectomy is also a very safe procedure, yet we don't just do them willy-nilly because any form of surgery carries its own risk, no matter how small.

brewcejener 8mo ago

[dead]

Fire-Dragon-DoL 8mo ago

> “enormously powerful symbolic act of identity”. That's revolting in a way. Identity OF THE PARENT, not of the baby who definitely doesn't know. And maybe the teenager doesn't want to have that identity, but now it's too late

odyssey7 8mo ago
Also: given the historic role of circumcision in religious and cultural conversion, one could view infant circumcision as removing that possibility for certain religious or cultural conversions later in life. In this sense, it might be viewed as culturally immunizing as well as being a cultural marker.

AndrewKemendo 8mo ago

Finally taking this seriously as what it is: religious genital mutilation

just_the_tip2 8mo ago

In 1996 the Federal Prohibition of Female Genital Mutilation Act made it illegal to perform FGM on minors for non-medical reasons, and in 2013 the Transport for Female Genital Mutilation Act prohibited transporting a minor out of the country for the purpose of FGM. Male genital mutilation on minors for non-medical reasons should also be made illegal. It is amazing Medicaid still pays for it in many states. The American Academy of Pediatrics is failing the United States.

foxglacier 8mo ago
[flagged]
- GeoAtreides 8mo ago
  They're not different: they both irreversibly violate body autonomy for non-medical purposes.
  - IshKebab 8mo ago
    They're clearly different. FGM generally has much more severe consequences than circumcision. They should both be banned but FGM is clearly much worse.
    - Jensson 8mo ago
      > FGM generally has much more severe consequences than circumcision There are variants that are equivalent to circumcision, but those are banned as well. It is illegal to cut into female genitals and legal to cut into male genitals today. To stay consistent people should either support making some versions of FGM legal or make all versions of MGM illegal.
  - edanm 8mo ago
    So does getting your kid's ears pierced. So does fixing their teeth for aesthetic reasons.

kyleee 8mo ago

It should be, right along with FGM

HiPhish 8mo ago

I have seen babies with pierced ears and studs. Even when there is no religious pressure some people are just so sick in their head, they will have their babies put through mutilation just because they think it looks "cute". Those people deserve to have railroad spikes driven through their skin. I would advocate for banning all non-necessary body modification on small children. And before anyone tells me "it's better to do it when they are small, then they won't remember it": no remembering the source of a trauma makes is even worse. That's like saying date rape drugs are no big deal because the victim can't remember it.

odyssey7 8mo ago
There isn’t an equivalence between pierced ears, which is reversible, and circumcision, which is not.

DoctorOetker 8mo ago

the discussion got flagged why is it not possible to vouch for the discussion?

edanm 8mo ago
It is not possible to vouch for any discussion, afaik. Only comments.
- DoctorOetker 8mo ago
  I asked "why" it is impossible not "if" it is.
dang 8mo ago
It's flagged but not dead. These are not the same thing. See https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html. Also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39676944 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39676944 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38918548 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38918548
NedF 8mo ago
[dead]

stranded22 8mo ago

Good. It is barbaric and mutilation.

deleted 8mo ago

[deleted]

attqqq 8mo ago

Baffling that male genital mutilation persists to this day due to momentum, misinformation, and a small religious niche alone. Really makes me think there’s an empathy gap between gendered issues. 1996 we got rid of FGM, yet 30 years later baby boys still get their tips of their penis cut off, often incorrectly/too far. Humbling reminder we really are a bunch of well dressed apes playing house, I forget that sometimes

mieses 8mo ago

hackers gonna hack