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Taking on extra responsibility is all well and good until someone figures out that they can just get you to do more work for the same amount of money. At that p

by amflare 8mo ago

Taking on extra responsibility is all well and good until someone figures out that they can just get you to do more work for the same amount of money. At that point your only option is to move on, because if you stop performing at the "expected" level due to lack of reciprocation, suddenly you have "performance issues".

weinzierl 8mo ago
This, but it's not only about the additional work but often about additional responsibility. Taking responsibility for decisions that actually fall within your manager's area of responsibility often puts them in a very comfortable position. At least if they trust you and don't question your loyalty, which is exactly what you also try to reassure them if you want a promotion. However the net effect is that it's a reliable way to get stuck on that rung of the career ladder indefinitely.
- hcfman 8mo ago
  Really strange. I don't see the extra responsibility by those high up in the chain. I just don't see those guys being held accountable. Instead, I see a lot of talk down to the bottom of the chain about "Taking ownership".
cephei 8mo ago
In my experience, I've seen engineers try to take on more work to get promoted, but the key issue is that they were doing more work at their own level instead of focusing on work that would be their responsibility if they promoted. If an IC takes on more and more IC work instead of management responsibilities, it's harder to promote them.
- hibikir 8mo ago
  That's also pointing to a big risk for certain jumps, as everything done in the list for, say, a cross team position means less work on your team. So a manager that isn't all that friendly can use an attempt at promotion as a great excuse for a PIP: I've seen that done around me at least a couple of times.
- theptip 8mo ago
  Great point. And I think this is why I love the framing in the OP. “Do more” is a failure mode and path to burnout. “Do what I’m doing and you’re not doing” is a cue that an ambitious engineer can reflect on constantly.
- ozim 8mo ago
  If they do that, that's exactly why you don't want to promote them because it is clear they don't understand that doing x+5 work on your own is not as good as x*5 when you become multiplier by helping others.
  - TeMPOraL 8mo ago
    Except the only way to do x*5 work is by your team hiring extra 5 people for you to manage... or, somewhat uniquely to our industry, through automating your own work. Also, everyone else hears the same memes about "being a force multiplier" too. When everyone is trying to be a multiplier for the team by helping everyone else on it, the result isn't exponential productivity growth - it's drowning in exponential noise. Like some other commenters correctly observed, the most significant factor is actually whether the company you're in is stable headcount-wise, or growing fast. In a stable company, promos are a contested resource, which makes the requirements arbitrary - you're graded on an ordinal scale, not a nominal one. In a fast-growing company, promos will happen to you, through no effort on your own - you can coast upwards on seniority alone. In neither situation, consistently performing at the level above you is a differentiating factor.
  - wiseowise 8mo ago
    x+5 is greater than x*5, if x=1. But great thinking, just make sure you're transparent with your team members so you neither get x+5, nor x*5.
- beoberha 8mo ago
  Yep, as a manager, I am explaining this conundrum often. You can be a rockstar SDE 2 or senior, but not be ready for a promotion because you aren’t leading enough.
- JoshTriplett 8mo ago
  > If an IC takes on more and more IC work instead of management responsibilities, it's harder to promote them. This is one reason it's critically important for a company to have paths for ICs to take on larger responsibilities that aren't necessarily management responsibilities. Not everyone wants to be a manager, and not everyone is good at being a manager. Some people want to become increasingly senior engineers. (They'll still, ultimately, be responsible for things that involve other people, but that doesn't mean they want to be a people-manager.)
- gowld 8mo ago
  "promotion" is just a word. Either management can pay for performance, or employ can perform for pay, and cut back on work hours.
- asdfman123 8mo ago
  "No bastard ever got promoted by doing a lot of work for the company. He got promoted by getting someone else to do a lot of work for the company." - General George S. Patton, probably
pizzathyme 8mo ago
Ideally this friction should be viewed as a normal part of career growth. You will have expanded your expertise and are now capable of harder problems and roles, with more compensation in return. The typical moves are: [1] Negotiate for more title, compensation at your current role (good outcome) [2] Leave for a better role (a good outcome) [3] Stay, no change, doing more work for the same money (not recommended)
michaelt 8mo ago
The second secret to getting promoted is working at a company that's growing. If you're at a 50 employee company that grows to 250 employees there will be many empty team leader positions. And what you lack in hands-on management experience you make up for in knowledge of the business, its products/processes, and being a reliable known quantity. That extra responsibility will turn into more money fast. On the other hand, if the company's headcount is largely stable and the employee turnover low? Well, there might not be an empty position until someone a level above you resigns, retires or gets fired. And when that happens - you're probably not the only ambitious person at your level. In this case, the payoff from extra effort is much less certain.
- mywittyname 8mo ago
  If you're at a larger company, then you'll probably have to line up another to get promoted. Having one foot out the door is often the ammo that managers need to get HR and leadership to approve a promotion. Of course, we've been told to never accept a counter offer at your job.
  - rivetfasten 8mo ago
    > Of course, we've been told to never accept a counter offer at your job. Do you have a example article? I haven't encountered the advice, but I'm curious if the reasoning matches my guess.
    - wombat-man 8mo ago
      This was talked about in The Hard Thing about Hard Things by Ben Horowitz, iirc, but from the other side. It advises to not offer a raise to keep an employee planning to leave. This is because the implication is that you were underpaying them before or that you're willing to overpay them now for threatening to quit. This encourages employees to follow suit instead of working towards promo. So pay what you're willing to and don't play that kind of game. The book/article goes in more depth. I thought it was still online for free but I can't seem to find it.
reg_dunlop 8mo ago
Exactly. Where's the guarantee for recognition of future growth....if they don't recognize past growth? The biggest gripe I have about articles such as this is that it assumes a static perspective of "now, into the future" and it doesn't account for "all the time before now". If I'm having a conversation akin to the one that opens the blog post, then presumably I've been at the company for a while. Conversations like that don't just happen between CTO and engineer unless there's some time vested in the company for both. A CTO saying "take my job" as a non-sequitur is sus, IMHO. Now if it's said in the context of "here's a raise, and if you want another one....try to take my job", well now there's some decent context for the ask and a reason to believe that future growth will be compensated. The best prediction of future performance is past behavior. That goes for mgmt as well as pee-on.
deleted 8mo ago
[deleted]
kamaal 8mo ago
>>Taking on extra responsibility is all well and good until someone figures out that they can just get you to do more work for the same amount of money. Wait a minute. Why are you accepting more work, responsibility without increase in compensation? Promotion de facto means getting paid more. Otherwise its just some one updating a row in the employee database with fancy text. How does it matter what designation you are called with? I had a similar situation few years before COVID where a company offered a fancy designation albeit for 50% lesser the pay. All said and done, when I did all the calculations, even with me rapidly changing companies with newly acquired designation, and building from there. It would take more than a decade to merely arrive to the salary I was then. And that would still mean more than a decade of wasted raises, bonuses and RSU vesting at the then current job. By the time that fork got profitable, I'd be due for retirement. Promotion == Pay/Compensation Raise.
mikeryan 8mo ago
Without a doubt there are toxic work environments and bosses that think the way you’ve stated. That said my point of view as a manager was to try to hire people who could take my job someday. Those were the people that would make me look good by having a great team. I don’t need to steal their thunder because the higher you go in a healthy organization the more it’s about having people that can execute your strategy then about your individual contributions. The best analogy for this I see is in the NFL when new, young head coaches seem to be afraid to hire experienced coordinators who have been fired as head coaches because they’re afraid of hiring their replacement if they fail. The thing is those ex head coaches were undoubtedly successful in their previous coordinator roles which is why they got a head coach gig to begin with and are likely the best option for making the new head coach successful. Long story short it’s up to you to determine which type of leader you’re working for and and take ownership of moving on when in a toxic situation as opposed to a healthy one.
snowwrestler 8mo ago
It’s absolutely true that you need to be willing to move on if your current employer doesn’t reward you for what you do. That doesn’t negate the value of working above your title. Even if you need to leave, doing better work makes your resume and interviews stronger.

by amflare 8mo ago

weinzierl 8mo ago

This, but it's not only about the additional work but often about additional responsibility. Taking responsibility for decisions that actually fall within your manager's area of responsibility often puts them in a very comfortable position. At least if they trust you and don't question your loyalty, which is exactly what you also try to reassure them if you want a promotion. However the net effect is that it's a reliable way to get stuck on that rung of the career ladder indefinitely.

hcfman 8mo ago
Really strange. I don't see the extra responsibility by those high up in the chain. I just don't see those guys being held accountable. Instead, I see a lot of talk down to the bottom of the chain about "Taking ownership".

cephei 8mo ago

In my experience, I've seen engineers try to take on more work to get promoted, but the key issue is that they were doing more work at their own level instead of focusing on work that would be their responsibility if they promoted. If an IC takes on more and more IC work instead of management responsibilities, it's harder to promote them.

hibikir 8mo ago
That's also pointing to a big risk for certain jumps, as everything done in the list for, say, a cross team position means less work on your team. So a manager that isn't all that friendly can use an attempt at promotion as a great excuse for a PIP: I've seen that done around me at least a couple of times.
theptip 8mo ago
Great point. And I think this is why I love the framing in the OP. “Do more” is a failure mode and path to burnout. “Do what I’m doing and you’re not doing” is a cue that an ambitious engineer can reflect on constantly.
ozim 8mo ago
If they do that, that's exactly why you don't want to promote them because it is clear they don't understand that doing x+5 work on your own is not as good as x*5 when you become multiplier by helping others.
- TeMPOraL 8mo ago
  Except the only way to do x*5 work is by your team hiring extra 5 people for you to manage... or, somewhat uniquely to our industry, through automating your own work. Also, everyone else hears the same memes about "being a force multiplier" too. When everyone is trying to be a multiplier for the team by helping everyone else on it, the result isn't exponential productivity growth - it's drowning in exponential noise. Like some other commenters correctly observed, the most significant factor is actually whether the company you're in is stable headcount-wise, or growing fast. In a stable company, promos are a contested resource, which makes the requirements arbitrary - you're graded on an ordinal scale, not a nominal one. In a fast-growing company, promos will happen to you, through no effort on your own - you can coast upwards on seniority alone. In neither situation, consistently performing at the level above you is a differentiating factor.
- wiseowise 8mo ago
  x+5 is greater than x*5, if x=1. But great thinking, just make sure you're transparent with your team members so you neither get x+5, nor x*5.
beoberha 8mo ago
Yep, as a manager, I am explaining this conundrum often. You can be a rockstar SDE 2 or senior, but not be ready for a promotion because you aren’t leading enough.
JoshTriplett 8mo ago
> If an IC takes on more and more IC work instead of management responsibilities, it's harder to promote them. This is one reason it's critically important for a company to have paths for ICs to take on larger responsibilities that aren't necessarily management responsibilities. Not everyone wants to be a manager, and not everyone is good at being a manager. Some people want to become increasingly senior engineers. (They'll still, ultimately, be responsible for things that involve other people, but that doesn't mean they want to be a people-manager.)
gowld 8mo ago
"promotion" is just a word. Either management can pay for performance, or employ can perform for pay, and cut back on work hours.
asdfman123 8mo ago
"No bastard ever got promoted by doing a lot of work for the company. He got promoted by getting someone else to do a lot of work for the company." - General George S. Patton, probably

pizzathyme 8mo ago

Ideally this friction should be viewed as a normal part of career growth. You will have expanded your expertise and are now capable of harder problems and roles, with more compensation in return. The typical moves are: [1] Negotiate for more title, compensation at your current role (good outcome) [2] Leave for a better role (a good outcome) [3] Stay, no change, doing more work for the same money (not recommended)

michaelt 8mo ago

The second secret to getting promoted is working at a company that's growing. If you're at a 50 employee company that grows to 250 employees there will be many empty team leader positions. And what you lack in hands-on management experience you make up for in knowledge of the business, its products/processes, and being a reliable known quantity. That extra responsibility will turn into more money fast. On the other hand, if the company's headcount is largely stable and the employee turnover low? Well, there might not be an empty position until someone a level above you resigns, retires or gets fired. And when that happens - you're probably not the only ambitious person at your level. In this case, the payoff from extra effort is much less certain.

mywittyname 8mo ago
If you're at a larger company, then you'll probably have to line up another to get promoted. Having one foot out the door is often the ammo that managers need to get HR and leadership to approve a promotion. Of course, we've been told to never accept a counter offer at your job.
- rivetfasten 8mo ago
  > Of course, we've been told to never accept a counter offer at your job. Do you have a example article? I haven't encountered the advice, but I'm curious if the reasoning matches my guess.
  - wombat-man 8mo ago
    This was talked about in The Hard Thing about Hard Things by Ben Horowitz, iirc, but from the other side. It advises to not offer a raise to keep an employee planning to leave. This is because the implication is that you were underpaying them before or that you're willing to overpay them now for threatening to quit. This encourages employees to follow suit instead of working towards promo. So pay what you're willing to and don't play that kind of game. The book/article goes in more depth. I thought it was still online for free but I can't seem to find it.

reg_dunlop 8mo ago

Exactly. Where's the guarantee for recognition of future growth....if they don't recognize past growth? The biggest gripe I have about articles such as this is that it assumes a static perspective of "now, into the future" and it doesn't account for "all the time before now". If I'm having a conversation akin to the one that opens the blog post, then presumably I've been at the company for a while. Conversations like that don't just happen between CTO and engineer unless there's some time vested in the company for both. A CTO saying "take my job" as a non-sequitur is sus, IMHO. Now if it's said in the context of "here's a raise, and if you want another one....try to take my job", well now there's some decent context for the ask and a reason to believe that future growth will be compensated. The best prediction of future performance is past behavior. That goes for mgmt as well as pee-on.

deleted 8mo ago

[deleted]

kamaal 8mo ago

>>Taking on extra responsibility is all well and good until someone figures out that they can just get you to do more work for the same amount of money. Wait a minute. Why are you accepting more work, responsibility without increase in compensation? Promotion de facto means getting paid more. Otherwise its just some one updating a row in the employee database with fancy text. How does it matter what designation you are called with? I had a similar situation few years before COVID where a company offered a fancy designation albeit for 50% lesser the pay. All said and done, when I did all the calculations, even with me rapidly changing companies with newly acquired designation, and building from there. It would take more than a decade to merely arrive to the salary I was then. And that would still mean more than a decade of wasted raises, bonuses and RSU vesting at the then current job. By the time that fork got profitable, I'd be due for retirement. Promotion == Pay/Compensation Raise.

mikeryan 8mo ago

Without a doubt there are toxic work environments and bosses that think the way you’ve stated. That said my point of view as a manager was to try to hire people who could take my job someday. Those were the people that would make me look good by having a great team. I don’t need to steal their thunder because the higher you go in a healthy organization the more it’s about having people that can execute your strategy then about your individual contributions. The best analogy for this I see is in the NFL when new, young head coaches seem to be afraid to hire experienced coordinators who have been fired as head coaches because they’re afraid of hiring their replacement if they fail. The thing is those ex head coaches were undoubtedly successful in their previous coordinator roles which is why they got a head coach gig to begin with and are likely the best option for making the new head coach successful. Long story short it’s up to you to determine which type of leader you’re working for and and take ownership of moving on when in a toxic situation as opposed to a healthy one.

snowwrestler 8mo ago

It’s absolutely true that you need to be willing to move on if your current employer doesn’t reward you for what you do. That doesn’t negate the value of working above your title. Even if you need to leave, doing better work makes your resume and interviews stronger.