7 ms·

I spot checked some of this and from what I can find, the median salary in London is about $12k more than Mississippi, and the median house price in London is a

by verbify 9mo ago

I spot checked some of this and from what I can find, the median salary in London is about $12k more than Mississippi, and the median house price in London is about $100k less than California. Bear in mind that obviously the mean salary in London is going to be far higher than the median (the finance industry will skew it), while I'm not sure that's as extreme as Mississippi. Additionally median salaries reflect a lot of service jobs and similar labour. Dubai has a lower median wage than either London or Mississippi, but people don't think of it as economically broken. Comparing California (an extremely large state that I presume has cheaper housing outside major urban areas) to a city seems a bit of a poor comparison. I don't disagree that the UK has high energy costs.

lukevp 9mo ago
If you’re trying to do a rebuttal, saying that wages are slightly higher than Mississippi and house prices are slightly lower than Cali doesn’t refute anything, it just serves to make the example more extreme and concrete. Look at house prices in Mississippi in relation to their income and then compare the same ratio for Cali and for London.
- piker 9mo ago
  Also, taxes?
  - butvacuum 9mo ago
    tax numbers are irrelevant except as part of a takehome pay calculation. at the very least, pretending that health insurance isnt another tax is a common way to derail these discussions.
    - piker 9mo ago
      That’s right if the quote is net of income tax, but that wasn’t clear. While we’re on the subject we should include the 20% VAT (delta 5-10% sales tax in the states) which is the most regressive tax on the poor there is.
      - hdgvhicv 9mo ago
        No vat on the majority of spending - from rent to food. But buy a £50k Rolex and yes there is vat.
        piker 9mo ago
        Roughly the same with sales tax, it's just 1/3rd of that number. > But buy a £50k Rolex and yes there is vat. This is wildly ignorant of how less fortunate people live. They are hit with VAT on many daily expenses. Ignoring that fact and "tsk tsk"ing them for being frivolous is the [British] way.
        pixelpoet 9mo ago
        > the European way There we go, the European monolith strikes again. Because the UK and Germany and Spain and Italy and Poland and Finland and and and are just so alike.
        piker 9mo ago
        For purposes of this discussion, I believe VAT is roughly uniform across the EU + UK and some other European jurisdictions. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I did update the comment to limit the critique to the UK.
        ben_w 9mo ago
        Many daily expenses, yes. Before I left the UK, IIRC there was some campaign about tampons. But "majority" just means half. Between "The standard rate of VAT is 20 per cent, with around half of household expenditure subject to this rate." - https://obr.uk/forecasts-in-depth/tax-by-tax-spend-by-spend/vat/ https://obr.uk/forecasts-in-depth/tax-by-tax-spend-by-spend/... And Figure 10.2 on page 6 of https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN05620/SN05620.pdf https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN05... I'd say it's very close to even odds that the other poster is correct to say "No vat on the majority of spending". I'd also say that VAT should be reduced to encourage domestic spending and local growth, but I did leave the country for various reasons that can be simplified as "I do not expect the UK government to do the right thing".
- verbify 9mo ago
  I'm not sure why we're doing states vs cities. Jackson (the largest city in Mississippi) has a population of 150k. If I find a non-commuter belt town in the UK with a size of 150k, then the house prices will be dramatically lower. An analysis of London house prices needs to take into account that major urban areas in general command a premium (for reasons other than the ability to earn more). If you compare SF or LA to London, then you'll find: City | Median Wage | Median House Price | Ratio SF | 104k | $1.5m | 14.42 London | 67k | $890k | 13.28 LA | 73k | $1.1m | 15.07 London ends up being slightly more affordable despite lower salaries. The whole analogy was a bit meaningless - it wasn't an apples to apples comparison. The writer mixed geographic and demographic scales to make a point that could just as well be about the unaffordability of large cities.
  - Thorrez 9mo ago
    Fixed table formatting: City | Median Wage | Median House Price | Ratio SF | 104k | $1.5m | 14.42 London | 67k | $890k | 13.28 LA | 73k | $1.1m | 15.07
kortilla 9mo ago
If this was meant to be a rebuttal, it wasn’t. Compare the housing costs of London to the housing costs of San Francisco and then swap out those Bay Area salaries with your “slightly above Mississippi” wages and you’ll see why London looks so broken to people used to LA/SF/NY.
- verbify 9mo ago
  The median home price in San Francisco is $1.5m. In London it's $893,000. These are not comparable places. San Francisco is much much more expensive, I'm not sure why that means London is "broken". It's just got a different economic dynamic.
financetechbro 9mo ago
Dubai is absolutely economically broken lol. The city was built on cheap foreign slave labor. And the luxurious amenities of the city are only for the wealthy royal and foreigners. Their main export besides oil is the illusion of a thriving metropolis
- Cyph0n 9mo ago
  The example I like to use to demonstrate how broken labor vs. service costs are in the UAE is to compare the price of a Big Mac meal to the price of a standard manual car wash (closer to detailing tbh). In the UAE, a Big Mac meal costs approximately 35 AED ($10). On the other hand, a manual car wash - approx. 1-2 hours of labor - can cost you around 20 AED. In other words, you could get almost two manual car washes for the price of a Big Mac.
  - robkop 9mo ago
    Can you elaborate? I would have thought the main driver for the price of a service is the labor?
    - Cyph0n 9mo ago
      You essentially have two stratums of society: (1) the middle class (and above) who have money to spend on services (2) the migrant working class, the bulk of whom send every last extra penny back home as remittances to support family The second class of people are not considered as a market for the majority of services in the UAE. In the case of food, when they do eat out, they frequent traditional, low cost/quality establishments. As for why a Big Mac costs that much, labor definitely doesn’t have much to do with it. My impression is that prices continued to get pushed up as long as sales didn’t take a hit, which means it’s mostly pure profit. Keep in mind that the median salary isn’t that high. Without looking it up, I would guess it’s approx $25k USD/year, but I haven’t lived there in a while.
  - ineedaj0b 9mo ago
    You can probably get that here in the US near a high school during team sports donation times. Not a great car wash but probably $5-10 on the low end. One should be uncomfortable the Arab States are doing so well. They have no democracy but seem to be thriving. Not expected post 9/11 imo.
SamDc73 9mo ago
> Dubai has a lower median wage than either London or Mississippi, but people don't think of it as economically broken. Dubai isn’t sold as a place to belong long-term. Most people move there knowing it’s temporary. The Bay Area is drifting in the same direction too with the increased cost of living around here. (but the same could be said about most big cities, maybe?)

by verbify 9mo ago

lukevp 9mo ago

If you’re trying to do a rebuttal, saying that wages are slightly higher than Mississippi and house prices are slightly lower than Cali doesn’t refute anything, it just serves to make the example more extreme and concrete. Look at house prices in Mississippi in relation to their income and then compare the same ratio for Cali and for London.

piker 9mo ago
Also, taxes?
- butvacuum 9mo ago
  tax numbers are irrelevant except as part of a takehome pay calculation. at the very least, pretending that health insurance isnt another tax is a common way to derail these discussions.
  - piker 9mo ago
    That’s right if the quote is net of income tax, but that wasn’t clear. While we’re on the subject we should include the 20% VAT (delta 5-10% sales tax in the states) which is the most regressive tax on the poor there is.
    - hdgvhicv 9mo ago
      No vat on the majority of spending - from rent to food. But buy a £50k Rolex and yes there is vat.
      - piker 9mo ago
        Roughly the same with sales tax, it's just 1/3rd of that number. > But buy a £50k Rolex and yes there is vat. This is wildly ignorant of how less fortunate people live. They are hit with VAT on many daily expenses. Ignoring that fact and "tsk tsk"ing them for being frivolous is the [British] way.
        pixelpoet 9mo ago
        > the European way There we go, the European monolith strikes again. Because the UK and Germany and Spain and Italy and Poland and Finland and and and are just so alike.
        piker 9mo ago
        For purposes of this discussion, I believe VAT is roughly uniform across the EU + UK and some other European jurisdictions. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I did update the comment to limit the critique to the UK.
        ben_w 9mo ago
        Many daily expenses, yes. Before I left the UK, IIRC there was some campaign about tampons. But "majority" just means half. Between "The standard rate of VAT is 20 per cent, with around half of household expenditure subject to this rate." - https://obr.uk/forecasts-in-depth/tax-by-tax-spend-by-spend/vat/ https://obr.uk/forecasts-in-depth/tax-by-tax-spend-by-spend/... And Figure 10.2 on page 6 of https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN05620/SN05620.pdf https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN05... I'd say it's very close to even odds that the other poster is correct to say "No vat on the majority of spending". I'd also say that VAT should be reduced to encourage domestic spending and local growth, but I did leave the country for various reasons that can be simplified as "I do not expect the UK government to do the right thing".
verbify 9mo ago
I'm not sure why we're doing states vs cities. Jackson (the largest city in Mississippi) has a population of 150k. If I find a non-commuter belt town in the UK with a size of 150k, then the house prices will be dramatically lower. An analysis of London house prices needs to take into account that major urban areas in general command a premium (for reasons other than the ability to earn more). If you compare SF or LA to London, then you'll find: City | Median Wage | Median House Price | Ratio SF | 104k | $1.5m | 14.42 London | 67k | $890k | 13.28 LA | 73k | $1.1m | 15.07 London ends up being slightly more affordable despite lower salaries. The whole analogy was a bit meaningless - it wasn't an apples to apples comparison. The writer mixed geographic and demographic scales to make a point that could just as well be about the unaffordability of large cities.
- Thorrez 9mo ago
  Fixed table formatting: City | Median Wage | Median House Price | Ratio SF | 104k | $1.5m | 14.42 London | 67k | $890k | 13.28 LA | 73k | $1.1m | 15.07

kortilla 9mo ago

If this was meant to be a rebuttal, it wasn’t. Compare the housing costs of London to the housing costs of San Francisco and then swap out those Bay Area salaries with your “slightly above Mississippi” wages and you’ll see why London looks so broken to people used to LA/SF/NY.

verbify 9mo ago
The median home price in San Francisco is $1.5m. In London it's $893,000. These are not comparable places. San Francisco is much much more expensive, I'm not sure why that means London is "broken". It's just got a different economic dynamic.

financetechbro 9mo ago

Dubai is absolutely economically broken lol. The city was built on cheap foreign slave labor. And the luxurious amenities of the city are only for the wealthy royal and foreigners. Their main export besides oil is the illusion of a thriving metropolis

Cyph0n 9mo ago
The example I like to use to demonstrate how broken labor vs. service costs are in the UAE is to compare the price of a Big Mac meal to the price of a standard manual car wash (closer to detailing tbh). In the UAE, a Big Mac meal costs approximately 35 AED ($10). On the other hand, a manual car wash - approx. 1-2 hours of labor - can cost you around 20 AED. In other words, you could get almost two manual car washes for the price of a Big Mac.
- robkop 9mo ago
  Can you elaborate? I would have thought the main driver for the price of a service is the labor?
  - Cyph0n 9mo ago
    You essentially have two stratums of society: (1) the middle class (and above) who have money to spend on services (2) the migrant working class, the bulk of whom send every last extra penny back home as remittances to support family The second class of people are not considered as a market for the majority of services in the UAE. In the case of food, when they do eat out, they frequent traditional, low cost/quality establishments. As for why a Big Mac costs that much, labor definitely doesn’t have much to do with it. My impression is that prices continued to get pushed up as long as sales didn’t take a hit, which means it’s mostly pure profit. Keep in mind that the median salary isn’t that high. Without looking it up, I would guess it’s approx $25k USD/year, but I haven’t lived there in a while.
- ineedaj0b 9mo ago
  You can probably get that here in the US near a high school during team sports donation times. Not a great car wash but probably $5-10 on the low end. One should be uncomfortable the Arab States are doing so well. They have no democracy but seem to be thriving. Not expected post 9/11 imo.

SamDc73 9mo ago

> Dubai has a lower median wage than either London or Mississippi, but people don't think of it as economically broken. Dubai isn’t sold as a place to belong long-term. Most people move there knowing it’s temporary. The Bay Area is drifting in the same direction too with the increased cost of living around here. (but the same could be said about most big cities, maybe?)