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Venkatesh Rao offers the following definition of the "Fourth World" Fourth world: Parts of the developed world that have collapsed past third-world conditions

Venkatesh Rao offers the following definition of the "Fourth World" Fourth world: Parts of the developed world that have collapsed past third-world conditions because industrial safety nets have simultaneously withered from neglect/underfunding, and are being overwhelmed by demand, but where pre-modern societal structures don’t exist as backstops anymore. This is what this story reminds me of.

HPsquared 9mo ago
Isn't that basically what happened to the USSR? (Yes not technically "first world" but highly industrial and bureaucratic)
- mothballed 9mo ago
  People in the USSR at least had the good fortune of already living in a world where they were highly adept at recycling and barter and maintenance, and in the case of the chechens also community self defense. I think most of America would be fucked as most people don't know to how to do anything but their job plus buy things with money from their job. The top 25% of handy people might be able to change their own oil and that is it (not that they can't learn more, but it takes time).
  - potato3732842 9mo ago
    >I think most of America would be fucked as most people don't know to how to do anything Most of America would be substantially less fucked than the slice of mostly officer workers who mostly have enough money that "spend money rather than upskill or barter" is their default mode of operation you see via HN.
- trelane 9mo ago
  First World was US/NATO aligned. Second World was USSR/Warsaw Pact aligned. Third world was unaffiliated with either. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_World https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_World
  - yieldcrv 9mo ago
    I think this is relevant because the colloquialism of it meaning "developed" versus "undeveloped" doesn't work when you try to build on top of it it's impossible to build on what Third World means or add lore like Fourth World when the definition is on a shaky and now non-existent foundation, while much of the unaffiliated world is highly developed now.
    - trelane 9mo ago
      Yes. Also, fitting the USSR into the extended framework, by not recognizing that it already was in the framework to begin with. IIRC Wikipedia says the term was coined ca. 1950s, so it could be argued that the USSR's decline was already factored into the term.
      - QuercusMax 9mo ago
        > IIRC Wikipedia says the term was coined ca. 1950s, so it could be argued that the USSR's decline was already factored into the term. What? The Soviets got the bomb in 1949 and launched Sputnik in 1957. That makes no sense.
        trelane 9mo ago
        That success was not evenly distributed.
        QuercusMax 9mo ago
        Regardless, the Soviet Union was very far from collapsing in the 1950s. Again, what are you talking about?
gkoz 9mo ago
There's no indication of any failures of the industrial layer in this story. The train was working, it didn't crash into anything, everyone was safe.
- scotty79 9mo ago
  The train worked, the railway did not.
- fastball 9mo ago
  Safety failures are not the only type of failure.
sandblast2 9mo ago
I am sorry but this is not Rao's but Umair Haque's and he considers the UK and the US Fourth World.
- nephihaha 9mo ago
  Scotland, Wales, and Cornwall are fourth world stateless nations.
geysersam 9mo ago
This is just silly. The German train system has problems. Does that mean total civilizational collapse? No, it doesn't.
- busterarm 9mo ago
  Collapse is the other end of the spectrum. This is an institution whose practices/policies only serve itself instead of its customers/purpose. It's progress, taken to its extreme. From a certain point of view it's effectively the same as collapse.
  - geysersam 9mo ago
    What does that even mean? We're talking about an organization that serves billions of riders per year. Their passenger numbers increased 20-30% since 2020 so even if their delays are bad clearly it's not bad enough that most people seek alternatives.
    - busterarm 9mo ago
      If I'm using your transit service and you take me on a several hour detour without my consent passing a dozen or more possible stops because "you're not cleared for that", you aren't serving your mandate and I'm never using your service again. I might even pull the emergency brake before it gets that far and cause you more problems, even.
nephihaha 9mo ago
Someone already assigned "Fourth World" to stateless nations, so it's probably fifth world by now. The developed world does have decaying infrastructure but moving it between the private and state sector has caused problems. As has lockdown and other international policies. Our local government's main interest seems to be in shutting streets off and designing bad cycle infrastructure that is little use to cyclists (I am one by the way). It is letting our streets fall to pieces and spending lots of money erecting physical blocks.
- nullc 9mo ago
  https://old.reddit.com/r/fifthworldproblems/top/?sort=top&t=all https://old.reddit.com/r/fifthworldproblems/top/?sort=top&t=...

HPsquared 9mo ago

Isn't that basically what happened to the USSR? (Yes not technically "first world" but highly industrial and bureaucratic)

mothballed 9mo ago
People in the USSR at least had the good fortune of already living in a world where they were highly adept at recycling and barter and maintenance, and in the case of the chechens also community self defense. I think most of America would be fucked as most people don't know to how to do anything but their job plus buy things with money from their job. The top 25% of handy people might be able to change their own oil and that is it (not that they can't learn more, but it takes time).
- potato3732842 9mo ago
  >I think most of America would be fucked as most people don't know to how to do anything Most of America would be substantially less fucked than the slice of mostly officer workers who mostly have enough money that "spend money rather than upskill or barter" is their default mode of operation you see via HN.
trelane 9mo ago
First World was US/NATO aligned. Second World was USSR/Warsaw Pact aligned. Third world was unaffiliated with either. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_World https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_World
- yieldcrv 9mo ago
  I think this is relevant because the colloquialism of it meaning "developed" versus "undeveloped" doesn't work when you try to build on top of it it's impossible to build on what Third World means or add lore like Fourth World when the definition is on a shaky and now non-existent foundation, while much of the unaffiliated world is highly developed now.
  - trelane 9mo ago
    Yes. Also, fitting the USSR into the extended framework, by not recognizing that it already was in the framework to begin with. IIRC Wikipedia says the term was coined ca. 1950s, so it could be argued that the USSR's decline was already factored into the term.
    - QuercusMax 9mo ago
      > IIRC Wikipedia says the term was coined ca. 1950s, so it could be argued that the USSR's decline was already factored into the term. What? The Soviets got the bomb in 1949 and launched Sputnik in 1957. That makes no sense.
      - trelane 9mo ago
        That success was not evenly distributed.
        QuercusMax 9mo ago
        Regardless, the Soviet Union was very far from collapsing in the 1950s. Again, what are you talking about?

gkoz 9mo ago

There's no indication of any failures of the industrial layer in this story. The train was working, it didn't crash into anything, everyone was safe.

scotty79 9mo ago
The train worked, the railway did not.
fastball 9mo ago
Safety failures are not the only type of failure.

sandblast2 9mo ago

I am sorry but this is not Rao's but Umair Haque's and he considers the UK and the US Fourth World.

nephihaha 9mo ago
Scotland, Wales, and Cornwall are fourth world stateless nations.

geysersam 9mo ago

This is just silly. The German train system has problems. Does that mean total civilizational collapse? No, it doesn't.

busterarm 9mo ago
Collapse is the other end of the spectrum. This is an institution whose practices/policies only serve itself instead of its customers/purpose. It's progress, taken to its extreme. From a certain point of view it's effectively the same as collapse.
- geysersam 9mo ago
  What does that even mean? We're talking about an organization that serves billions of riders per year. Their passenger numbers increased 20-30% since 2020 so even if their delays are bad clearly it's not bad enough that most people seek alternatives.
  - busterarm 9mo ago
    If I'm using your transit service and you take me on a several hour detour without my consent passing a dozen or more possible stops because "you're not cleared for that", you aren't serving your mandate and I'm never using your service again. I might even pull the emergency brake before it gets that far and cause you more problems, even.

nephihaha 9mo ago

Someone already assigned "Fourth World" to stateless nations, so it's probably fifth world by now. The developed world does have decaying infrastructure but moving it between the private and state sector has caused problems. As has lockdown and other international policies. Our local government's main interest seems to be in shutting streets off and designing bad cycle infrastructure that is little use to cyclists (I am one by the way). It is letting our streets fall to pieces and spending lots of money erecting physical blocks.

nullc 9mo ago
https://old.reddit.com/r/fifthworldproblems/top/?sort=top&t=all https://old.reddit.com/r/fifthworldproblems/top/?sort=top&t=...