6 ms·

it would never happen, but ideally toll roads would be dynamically priced such that the average speed is always within 10% of the speed limit. congestion fixed.

it would never happen, but ideally toll roads would be dynamically priced such that the average speed is always within 10% of the speed limit. congestion fixed. earmark this money in a way that can't be siphoned and build public transportation with it. in addition buy fleets of buses with the cash that are exempt and analyze the destinations and origins of the traffic and put them there.

nfw2 9mo ago
demand for transport is not that elastic though
- hamdingers 9mo ago
  It's more elastic than you might assume. There's a phenomenon called traffic evaporation, when a major roadway is closed or diminished (even unexpectedly), people adjust their travel behavior such that travel times stay relatively constant. Los Angeles has many such examples, one recent and well studied one was the closure of the 10 freeway after a fire.
- dangus 9mo ago
  It totally is. Demand can be induced. You can build more highways/roads, you can build more transit options, you can decide how to design roads and handle zoning, affecting how far people go (where are their jobs and stores?), you can decide to build protected bike lanes or build prioritized bus lanes, etc. All of these factors and more affect demand for transportation.
- whimsicalism 9mo ago
  it’s actually been shocking to me how elastic it is. it frankly pisses me off how much time i spend in traffic behind people who are apparently fully deterred by a mere $1-2 fee. we should absolutely have faster lanes for people who are driving for higher value reasons.
zdragnar 9mo ago
People already driving generally aren't likely to change their destination, and all the traffic headed toward the dynamically priced toll road still needs to be diverted in a way that they will reach wherever they were going. You aren't going to change congestion unless you fix the balance between throughput and volume. Dynamic pricing doesn't improve throughput, and it doesn't decrease volume- it just forces some of that volume onto less well equipped roads.
- websiteapi 9mo ago
  why wouldn't it decrease volume? presumably if it starts costing 100 bucks a day people would stop driving and take these hypothetical buses, no? of course as I mentioned I know this would never actually work for political reasons.
  - zdragnar 9mo ago
    Because if it is dynamically priced, people won't know until they already need to go to their destination if the tollway will be affordable. The volume on the tollway itself may decrease, but only because drivers suddenly need to take other roads that the tollway was designed to alleviate pressure from in the first place.
- jobs_throwaway 9mo ago
  > People already driving generally aren't likely to change their destination They are if you price it properly. If it costs $1000 to get on that road, a lot of people are going to find alternative means of transport, carpool, or forgo the trip entirely.
hamdingers 9mo ago
Minnesota experimented with throttling freeway entrances based on congestion, not even charging money, and drivers response was clear: they'd rather sit in traffic.
- potato3732842 9mo ago
  So let them? I fail to see the problem here.
kergonath 9mo ago
> it would never happen, but ideally toll roads would be dynamically priced such that the average speed is always within 10% of the speed limit. congestion fixed. "Good news! Surge pricing is in effect, and today your commute will cost you twice the usual price!" People who can defer traveling to avoid traffic jams and congestion already tend to do so. Sitting in traffic is boring, stressful, and a waste of time and money. People who don’t have a good reason not to.
- ChadNauseam 9mo ago
  A good analogy is a queue. Imagine a society of mostly-identical people. You set up a stand that offers free sandwiches, but you can only give the sandwich to one person a minute. What will happen? A line will form outside your stand, growing longer until the length of the line is such that the discomfort of waiting in line is equal to the pleasure of eating the sandwich. So even though your sandwiches are supposedly free, a cost is still imposed on everyone who wants one, because they have to waste time standing in line. You're right that people who can defer traveling to avoid traffic jams and congestion already tend to do so. But there are still people at the margin. People who don't value their time or don't mind sitting in traffic listening to the radio or dislike taking the bus. These people are creating congestion, imposting a cost on everyone else, and paying nothing for it. They would do it less if they had to pay. (It's okay for people to drive and sit in traffic, there's just no reason it should be free!) So it would really be more like "Good news! Surge pricing is in effect, and today your commute will cost you twice the usual price but take half as long!"
walthamstow 9mo ago
Buses are great! Road commuting is not much of a thing where I live, so what do I know, but the simplest way to mitigate the problem that poor people can't use a toll road is to put buses on it.
- next_xibalba 9mo ago
  I’ve never been on a public bus and thought, “this is great!”. Crowded, dirty, and almost always there is someone on drugs or experiencing psychosis. I’ll stick to my car.
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  - walthamstow 9mo ago
    I've never sat in car traffic and thought it was awesome either. It's a terrible economic drag and it's boring as fuck. There are solutions available.
  - bluGill 9mo ago
    I've never experienced that on a bus. but when transit is useless only those with no option use it and those tend to be the problems you state. Make transit useful and the problems go away
  - array_key_first 9mo ago
    Well it's either see someone experiencing psychosis, or be at a few orders of magnitude higher risk of dying or being seriously injured. I often see these comparisons to cars and theyre just so dishonest, because nobody seems to mention the number one downside of driving a lot. Maybe we're desensitized to it. Driving is a fantastic way to die, one of the best.
patmorgan23 9mo ago
There are tons of express lanes in my metro (DFW) that are dynamically priced to try and achieve a minimum speed of 55 mph
bdangubic 9mo ago
I didnt realize there are still tollroads that are not dynamically priced?! haven’t seen one in a loooong time
loeg 9mo ago
There are toll roads (or lanes) with dynamic pricing attempting to achieve something like this. They exist.
potato3732842 9mo ago
That's terrible and will be gamed to maximize revenue in no time flat.

nfw2 9mo ago

demand for transport is not that elastic though

hamdingers 9mo ago
It's more elastic than you might assume. There's a phenomenon called traffic evaporation, when a major roadway is closed or diminished (even unexpectedly), people adjust their travel behavior such that travel times stay relatively constant. Los Angeles has many such examples, one recent and well studied one was the closure of the 10 freeway after a fire.
dangus 9mo ago
It totally is. Demand can be induced. You can build more highways/roads, you can build more transit options, you can decide how to design roads and handle zoning, affecting how far people go (where are their jobs and stores?), you can decide to build protected bike lanes or build prioritized bus lanes, etc. All of these factors and more affect demand for transportation.
whimsicalism 9mo ago
it’s actually been shocking to me how elastic it is. it frankly pisses me off how much time i spend in traffic behind people who are apparently fully deterred by a mere $1-2 fee. we should absolutely have faster lanes for people who are driving for higher value reasons.

zdragnar 9mo ago

People already driving generally aren't likely to change their destination, and all the traffic headed toward the dynamically priced toll road still needs to be diverted in a way that they will reach wherever they were going. You aren't going to change congestion unless you fix the balance between throughput and volume. Dynamic pricing doesn't improve throughput, and it doesn't decrease volume- it just forces some of that volume onto less well equipped roads.

websiteapi 9mo ago
why wouldn't it decrease volume? presumably if it starts costing 100 bucks a day people would stop driving and take these hypothetical buses, no? of course as I mentioned I know this would never actually work for political reasons.
- zdragnar 9mo ago
  Because if it is dynamically priced, people won't know until they already need to go to their destination if the tollway will be affordable. The volume on the tollway itself may decrease, but only because drivers suddenly need to take other roads that the tollway was designed to alleviate pressure from in the first place.
jobs_throwaway 9mo ago
> People already driving generally aren't likely to change their destination They are if you price it properly. If it costs $1000 to get on that road, a lot of people are going to find alternative means of transport, carpool, or forgo the trip entirely.

hamdingers 9mo ago

Minnesota experimented with throttling freeway entrances based on congestion, not even charging money, and drivers response was clear: they'd rather sit in traffic.

potato3732842 9mo ago
So let them? I fail to see the problem here.

kergonath 9mo ago

> it would never happen, but ideally toll roads would be dynamically priced such that the average speed is always within 10% of the speed limit. congestion fixed. "Good news! Surge pricing is in effect, and today your commute will cost you twice the usual price!" People who can defer traveling to avoid traffic jams and congestion already tend to do so. Sitting in traffic is boring, stressful, and a waste of time and money. People who don’t have a good reason not to.

ChadNauseam 9mo ago
A good analogy is a queue. Imagine a society of mostly-identical people. You set up a stand that offers free sandwiches, but you can only give the sandwich to one person a minute. What will happen? A line will form outside your stand, growing longer until the length of the line is such that the discomfort of waiting in line is equal to the pleasure of eating the sandwich. So even though your sandwiches are supposedly free, a cost is still imposed on everyone who wants one, because they have to waste time standing in line. You're right that people who can defer traveling to avoid traffic jams and congestion already tend to do so. But there are still people at the margin. People who don't value their time or don't mind sitting in traffic listening to the radio or dislike taking the bus. These people are creating congestion, imposting a cost on everyone else, and paying nothing for it. They would do it less if they had to pay. (It's okay for people to drive and sit in traffic, there's just no reason it should be free!) So it would really be more like "Good news! Surge pricing is in effect, and today your commute will cost you twice the usual price but take half as long!"

walthamstow 9mo ago

Buses are great! Road commuting is not much of a thing where I live, so what do I know, but the simplest way to mitigate the problem that poor people can't use a toll road is to put buses on it.

next_xibalba 9mo ago
I’ve never been on a public bus and thought, “this is great!”. Crowded, dirty, and almost always there is someone on drugs or experiencing psychosis. I’ll stick to my car.
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- walthamstow 9mo ago
  I've never sat in car traffic and thought it was awesome either. It's a terrible economic drag and it's boring as fuck. There are solutions available.
- bluGill 9mo ago
  I've never experienced that on a bus. but when transit is useless only those with no option use it and those tend to be the problems you state. Make transit useful and the problems go away
- array_key_first 9mo ago
  Well it's either see someone experiencing psychosis, or be at a few orders of magnitude higher risk of dying or being seriously injured. I often see these comparisons to cars and theyre just so dishonest, because nobody seems to mention the number one downside of driving a lot. Maybe we're desensitized to it. Driving is a fantastic way to die, one of the best.

patmorgan23 9mo ago

There are tons of express lanes in my metro (DFW) that are dynamically priced to try and achieve a minimum speed of 55 mph

bdangubic 9mo ago

I didnt realize there are still tollroads that are not dynamically priced?! haven’t seen one in a loooong time

loeg 9mo ago

There are toll roads (or lanes) with dynamic pricing attempting to achieve something like this. They exist.

potato3732842 9mo ago

That's terrible and will be gamed to maximize revenue in no time flat.