6 ms·

this wasn't the point ... the point is that the whole thing is getting more and more political and less technical and fun. I was at the camp and some congresse

this wasn't the point ... the point is that the whole thing is getting more and more political and less technical and fun. I was at the camp and some congresses in the past and they where always fun but nowadays it seems like it's like a political movement event for certain strands and ideologies and way less fun and interesting things (thou there are gems) and it seems that you have to think a certain way or at least accept certain positions even if it's not your position because otherwise you are silly or something else.

pinkgolem 9mo ago
You might align less with the points brought forward, but the amount of politics has not changed much in my perception.
- slurrpurr 9mo ago
  The amount of politics may have stayed the same but the topics have definitely shifted
  - pinkgolem 9mo ago
    I mean, yes... Topics in politics shift
izacus 9mo ago
I've been there like 2 decades ago and even then it was a deeply political event. There never a time where German hacker clubs, which are the lifeblood of this event, weren't very political - and very explicitly left wing political.
- charcircuit 9mo ago
  Even if it was equally or less political than before, it could still be too political for someone that would be worth including.
- moltopoco 9mo ago
  We might be the same age; I remember that defacing conservative websites was already a C3 thing about 20 years ago. Back then, it felt good to punch up against authoritarianism. Hackers hated Bush and his Patriot Act just as much as many hate Trump now. In Germany, the CDU is of course the perennial enemy. But what happens when authoritarianism does not come from the right, but from the left or center? (Not a contradiction: East Germany was an "anti-fascist" totalitarian state as recently as 40 years ago.) Sadly, I think we have been slowly moving in this direction since Covid, where I was genuinely shocked that many of my "leftie" friends had turned into government drones (from my perspective), while they were deeply disappointed that I was now a "right-winger" (from their perspective). The more aware they become of how unpopular some of their politics are, the less they believe in democracy as a concept, while I'm still jealous of countries that have proper referendums and freedom of speech. Hate Speech laws are accelerating this divide. Anyway, I think that these are the dynamics that are driving many people apart who all simultaneously claim to not have changed in decades. The CCC is still doing a lot of great work, but I do feel it drifting away from me because it is not so much about punching up than about punching right.
  - snthd 9mo ago
    >But what happens when authoritarianism does not come from the right, but from the left or center? (Not a contradiction: That's the whole thing of the "political compass" both a left-to-right wing axis and a perpendicular authoritarian-libertarian axis: https://www.politicalcompass.org/analysis2 https://www.politicalcompass.org/analysis2
  - panick21_ 9mo ago
    The authoritarianism quick clearly and explicitly comes from the far right, Putin and Trump. Claiming anything else is ridiclous, its not even hidden anymore. Its a clear outright endorsment. Back in the Bush days it was about defending freedom but being to invasive about doing it. Nobody was talking about Bush they do about Trump. And the CDU of old is certaintly not the modern AfD. Claiming the lefts action in covid even approches the lines of thought out of Trump, AfD or Putin isnt a serious argument.
    - 9mo ago
jasonvorhe 9mo ago
IMHO, CCC is completely defanged as a political institution. They went along with contact tracing because the local app was open source and somewhat secure and many of the regulars in local spaces people will cause lots of drama if you don't wear a mask in 2025. Most local hackerspaces I visited are basically green and leftist queer safe spaces where adults run around with stuffed animals. If that's what you're looking for, great, I'm not judging, it just doesn't click with me. I used to visit hackerpaces during my travels but regardless of how open and kind I approach a new place, once they ask me to mask up or inquire for my pronouns things just don't end well, even if I'm really polite in explaining my position. That's not the tolerance and open mindedness I encountered around 2009 during my first C3. Still, I wish everyone attending the best of times. There's so many people there that I imagine you'll be able to find the right folks if you're there and look around. Not looking for a debate or inciting hate towards anyone here.
- slurrpurr 9mo ago
  Really matches my experience. Sometime during covid they really moved off the rails
- meibo 9mo ago
  Culture changes. Hacker culture in Europe changed too, young people are moving up and taking positions in local organizations. You didn't change with it, and you're not open to accepting that change, so you are feeling out of place - that's simply how this works. A lot of those people will feel welcomed and will be treated with respect that they don't usually get everywhere else. They decided to embrace that, it comes at a cost - like you feeling weirded out and not showing up - but they're probably fine with that being your problem to figure out.
  - mdavid626 9mo ago
    Culture changes, that’s true. However, “change” doesn’t normalize the far left/green initiatives.
    - meibo 9mo ago
bildung 9mo ago
Or perhaps you changed over the years?

pinkgolem 9mo ago

You might align less with the points brought forward, but the amount of politics has not changed much in my perception.

slurrpurr 9mo ago
The amount of politics may have stayed the same but the topics have definitely shifted
- pinkgolem 9mo ago
  I mean, yes... Topics in politics shift

izacus 9mo ago

I've been there like 2 decades ago and even then it was a deeply political event. There never a time where German hacker clubs, which are the lifeblood of this event, weren't very political - and very explicitly left wing political.

charcircuit 9mo ago
Even if it was equally or less political than before, it could still be too political for someone that would be worth including.
moltopoco 9mo ago
We might be the same age; I remember that defacing conservative websites was already a C3 thing about 20 years ago. Back then, it felt good to punch up against authoritarianism. Hackers hated Bush and his Patriot Act just as much as many hate Trump now. In Germany, the CDU is of course the perennial enemy. But what happens when authoritarianism does not come from the right, but from the left or center? (Not a contradiction: East Germany was an "anti-fascist" totalitarian state as recently as 40 years ago.) Sadly, I think we have been slowly moving in this direction since Covid, where I was genuinely shocked that many of my "leftie" friends had turned into government drones (from my perspective), while they were deeply disappointed that I was now a "right-winger" (from their perspective). The more aware they become of how unpopular some of their politics are, the less they believe in democracy as a concept, while I'm still jealous of countries that have proper referendums and freedom of speech. Hate Speech laws are accelerating this divide. Anyway, I think that these are the dynamics that are driving many people apart who all simultaneously claim to not have changed in decades. The CCC is still doing a lot of great work, but I do feel it drifting away from me because it is not so much about punching up than about punching right.
- snthd 9mo ago
  >But what happens when authoritarianism does not come from the right, but from the left or center? (Not a contradiction: That's the whole thing of the "political compass" both a left-to-right wing axis and a perpendicular authoritarian-libertarian axis: https://www.politicalcompass.org/analysis2 https://www.politicalcompass.org/analysis2
- panick21_ 9mo ago
  The authoritarianism quick clearly and explicitly comes from the far right, Putin and Trump. Claiming anything else is ridiclous, its not even hidden anymore. Its a clear outright endorsment. Back in the Bush days it was about defending freedom but being to invasive about doing it. Nobody was talking about Bush they do about Trump. And the CDU of old is certaintly not the modern AfD. Claiming the lefts action in covid even approches the lines of thought out of Trump, AfD or Putin isnt a serious argument.
  - 9mo ago

jasonvorhe 9mo ago

IMHO, CCC is completely defanged as a political institution. They went along with contact tracing because the local app was open source and somewhat secure and many of the regulars in local spaces people will cause lots of drama if you don't wear a mask in 2025. Most local hackerspaces I visited are basically green and leftist queer safe spaces where adults run around with stuffed animals. If that's what you're looking for, great, I'm not judging, it just doesn't click with me. I used to visit hackerpaces during my travels but regardless of how open and kind I approach a new place, once they ask me to mask up or inquire for my pronouns things just don't end well, even if I'm really polite in explaining my position. That's not the tolerance and open mindedness I encountered around 2009 during my first C3. Still, I wish everyone attending the best of times. There's so many people there that I imagine you'll be able to find the right folks if you're there and look around. Not looking for a debate or inciting hate towards anyone here.

slurrpurr 9mo ago
Really matches my experience. Sometime during covid they really moved off the rails
meibo 9mo ago
Culture changes. Hacker culture in Europe changed too, young people are moving up and taking positions in local organizations. You didn't change with it, and you're not open to accepting that change, so you are feeling out of place - that's simply how this works. A lot of those people will feel welcomed and will be treated with respect that they don't usually get everywhere else. They decided to embrace that, it comes at a cost - like you feeling weirded out and not showing up - but they're probably fine with that being your problem to figure out.
- mdavid626 9mo ago
  Culture changes, that’s true. However, “change” doesn’t normalize the far left/green initiatives.
  - meibo 9mo ago

bildung 9mo ago

Or perhaps you changed over the years?