36 ms·

One thing that stopped me from seeking the vanity plate - I learned that at least in Texas all plates are made by minimally paid prisoners. So any desire to fin

by hippich 9mo ago

One thing that stopped me from seeking the vanity plate - I learned that at least in Texas all plates are made by minimally paid prisoners. So any desire to finance that system beyond what's absolute possible minimum (i.e. regular plates) evaporated.

rsstack 9mo ago
In New York it's the same, they make the license plates and also school furniture, and maybe other things too. I was scared for a moment when I was told by USPS Informed Delivery that I have incoming mail from Auburn Correctional Facility - but it was a license plate.
- reactordev 9mo ago
  [flagged]
  - embedding-shape 9mo ago
    > Yes, it’s borderline slave labor I'm sorry, how is it "borderline" slave labour and not straight up forced labour? These people are imprisoned, and I'm assuming forced to do this work, or what happens if they say no? It's quite literally known as "penal labour" and I thought most of the world figured out that we're not supposed to treat people like that anymore.
    - MangoToupe 9mo ago
      Even our legal system recognizes it as slave labor. The thirteenth amendment specifically says: "neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."
      - reactordev 9mo ago
        yes but except as a punishment for crime whereof has been refined with further case law I believe. You can be forced to do small jobs, clean up. You can be assigned Road Crew and pickup trash. You can do small jobs that the system won't hire and pay for, they'll use you. So long as you aren't a risk of flight, to the officers, or to society if you have to interact with the public. Beats sitting in a cinderblock white-painted cell with a metal cot and 4" mattress.
        kelnos 9mo ago
        > Beats sitting in a cinderblock white-painted cell with a metal cot and 4" mattress. Does it, though? One might prefer that over slave labor.
        qingcharles 9mo ago
        Yes, you don't need to be convicted to be forced into labor under the 13th. Pretrial detainees can be forced to do "housekeeping chores" and not violate the constitution.
        reactordev 9mo ago
        That actually is a good point, in the US justice system, you’re guilty until proven innocent (for most people). Just the fact that you have a case has ruined lives.
        LocalH 9mo ago
        This shows that the government (all branches) has always ignored the Constitution. It clearly says in the 13th that it requires the person to be "duly convicted".
        qingcharles 9mo ago
        There was a lawsuit, and the US Supreme Court interpreted the 13th amendment and carved out an exception, because of course they did.
    - xienze 9mo ago
      > and not straight up forced labour? Well you’re making the assumption that prisoners are forced to do this work rather than opting to in order to make a little money for snacks and/or make a case for good behavior when they come before the parole board.
      - komali2 9mo ago
        It's still slave labor if the most basic of comforts and privileges are locked away from you if you don't participate. Plus you don't really have choice in the labor you perform, no choice in where you perform it, no choice in when, you aren't really paid, you can only spend money in the commissary (at insanely inflated prices). Sure it's not a slave on a cotton field getting whipped for not meeting quota, but it really isn't far from that.
      - 1-more 9mo ago
        > make a case for good behavior when they come before the parole board It can be a bit more explicit than that: in Colorado, inmates can earn 10–12 days per month of "earned time." Earned time shortens the time until eligibility for parole. Section D in the linked document (from the linked department policies page section 625-02) gives examples of behavior that can add up to earned time. For instance, a day of work at a disaster site is worth a day of earned time (D.4.a.1) https://drive.google.com/file/d/1q6IXf-yWnbA3Ujjejola7fiwijvSP6Fb/view https://drive.google.com/file/d/1q6IXf-yWnbA3Ujjejola7fiwijv... https://cdoc.colorado.gov/about/department-policies https://cdoc.colorado.gov/about/department-policies
    - danvayn 9mo ago
      They can say no. These Prisons incentivize inmates to opt in by claiming that prisoners develop employable marketable skills and that the work leaves a a good mark on their record. It can also pay out cents to a few dollars an hour (or nothing at all) It’s not quite slave labor but it probably should be compensated better at the minimum.
      - embedding-shape 9mo ago
        Never heard about it myself before, and went to Wikipedia of course, and found this: > Prison labor in the US is mostly optional. Although inmates are paid for their labor in most states, they usually receive less than $1 per hour. As of 2017, Arkansas, Georgia, and Texas did not pay inmates for any work whether inside the prison (such as custodial work and food services) or in state-owned businesses. Additionally, Alabama, Florida, Mississippi, Oklahoma, and South Carolina allowed unpaid labor for at least some jobs. Incarcerated individuals who are required to work typically receive minimal to no job training resulting in situations where their health and safety could potentially be compromised. Prison workers in the US are generally exempt from workers' rights and occupational safety protections, including when seriously injured or killed. Often times, inmates that are often overworked through penal labor do not receive any proper education or opportunities of "rehabilitation" to maximize profits off the cheap labor produced. Many incarcerated workers also struggle to purchase basic necessities as prices of goods continue to soar, meanwhile prison wages continue to stay the same. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_States#Modern_prison_labor_systems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_Stat... It sounds like it isn't optional everywhere, the pay is beyond inhuman, they don't always get any benefits at all, no training, don't safety and are overworked. Overall, sounds like a nice idea on paper, but combine it with private companies actually running these prisons and probably making profits on having more f̵o̵r̵c̵e̵d̵ labour available to them and you basically re-invented slavery again, just with a nicer name.
        SR2Z 9mo ago
        > It sounds like it isn't optional everywhere, the pay is beyond inhuman, they don't always get any benefits at all, no training, don't safety and are overworked. Most of these are true, but I would push back on the pay angle. If a person is in jail, they are a ward of the state and have no expenses at all. There is no sense in paying them a "living wage" because they don't have to live off it. In any case, most stereotypical prison jobs would not cover the cost of incarcerating the employee. A common way this works these days in more progressive states is that prisoners who can hold down a remote job are allowed to keep their income, minus paying a tithe for their incarceration: https://www.mainepublic.org/2025-08-29/in-maine-prisoners-are-thriving-in-remote-jobs-and-other-states-are-taking-notice https://www.mainepublic.org/2025-08-29/in-maine-prisoners-ar... > Overall, sounds like a nice idea on paper, but combine it with private companies actually running these prisons and probably making profits on having more f̵o̵r̵c̵e̵d̵ labour available to them and you basically re-invented slavery again, just with a nicer name. Only about 10% of prisoners are in private prisons. The vast majority of them are in some kind of government prison. The US definitely puts too many people in prison, but that's for cultural reasons and not because of some nefarious plan to get cheap labor.
    - Aurornis 9mo ago
      > These people are imprisoned, and I'm assuming forced to do this work This is an incorrect assumption, at least in my state. It’s a job that they can apply for and opt in to do. The debate is about their hourly wage. There is a possibility of forced penal labor, as I understand it, but it’s mostly things like being forced to do cleaning duties, road cleanup, etc.
      - embedding-shape 9mo ago
        [flagged]
      - culi 9mo ago
        Prisoners are charged rent. The hourly wages have no minimum wage and are usually cents on the dollar. Definitely not enough to pay their rent for their cell. It's slavery. The South fought hard to include the "except as punishment for crime" clause in the 13th amendment. The US has never fully abolished slavery.
        oniony 9mo ago
        Say what? Prisoners pay rent?
        decimalenough 9mo ago
        Yup! > Fees for room and board—yes, literally for a thin mattress or even a plastic “boat” bed in a hallway, a toilet that may not flush, and scant, awful tasting food—are typically charged at a “per diem rate for the length of incarceration.” It is not uncommon for these fees to reach $20 to $80 a day for the entire period of incarceration. https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/americas-dystopian-incarceration-system-pay-stay-behind-bars https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/amer...
        phanimahesh 9mo ago
        Holy hell I've read it's bad but this is horrible but very on brand for the capital of capitalism.
  - komali2 9mo ago
    > To the readers out there. Do not be put off by where it was made, how it was made. It was made. And if it never sells, the profit margins for the slave drivers decreases. I mean, I really, this post is trying to justify slave labor. Is that not... A little bizarre to find yourself doing that?
    - reactordev 9mo ago
      I'm not justifying slave labor. I'm pointing out that they should be paid more. They'll gladly make the plates and be happy doing it. Getting outside means the world to them. Don't hate them for making the plates, hate the system for putting them into slave labor, but at the same time show some compassion for those who are trying to live and be, normal productive members of society (even if it is at shotgun point). My point is, it's not the employee and where that employee makes the product, it's the company that abuses that employee to make the product for you. So no, not justifying slave labor, but I am justifying using prison labor (at minimum wage) to give them a chance at rehabilitation and/or restitution.
      - squibonpig 9mo ago
        Not to nitpick, but you're saying they presumably appreciate the opportunity to go outside for a while and such. Leaving aside they could be granted that just fine without the slavery, aren't most prison jobs worked inside the prison? The only exceptions I can think of are agricultural work or road crews.
  - knome 9mo ago
    Selling prisoners as underpaid slave labor means everyone else now has to compete against companies using that slave labor. It's essentially cutting us twice. We both pay to house and feed the employees/contractors of the company benefiting who then undercuts us by not bothering to pay them. Prisons should not be allowed to be a profit center. The ramifications of doing so create gross incentives.
    - reactordev 9mo ago
      >Prisons should not be allowed to be a profit center. That ship sailed post American Civil-War. We've made it part of our culture. Every prison charges their inmates to be there. Per Diems. It used to be tax payers but... they found out they could double dip.
      - squibonpig 9mo ago
        This is the kind of thing it's relatively viable to address legislatively, and which would be well within the overton window if it were given more attention.
  - mc32 9mo ago
    Also these are people found guilty of a felony and it costs us non prisoners tax money to keep them housed and fed. Is it unfair if we extract under paid or unpaid labor from them? Is it also unfair to ask drivers convicted of DWD to do free community labor?
    - reactordev 9mo ago
      Yes, it's unfair to force a human being into labor. Paid or unpaid. It should be voluntary. Community Service as a punishment is different. That's a do labor or else do time so you're trading labor for hours/time. Paid in trust. I have issue with do time and do labor as a form of punishment without reward. Most inmates are incarcerated due to circumstance. They lacked the ability to better their lives and required monies to live, so they resorted to crime. Given a chance, many inmates get degrees behind bars, learn skills, write books, practice art.
  - fleroviumna 9mo ago
    [dead]
embedding-shape 9mo ago
> I learned that at least in Texas all plates are made by minimally paid prisoners Lol, wasn't slavery outlawed in the US, or were some states still allowed to keep it? That's absolutely bananas if true.
- paulddraper 9mo ago
  No, Thirteenth Amendment permits it as punishment for a crime. This a good reminder to all Americans to read the Constitution. The amount of bizarre understandings (not necessarily this one) that I see is very high.
- dogleash 9mo ago
  Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
  - rimunroe 9mo ago
    For anyone unaware, that is nearly[1] the entirety of the text of the 13th Amendment to the US Constitution from 1865. This exception is rather (in)famous. I remember being quizzed on it in an elementary or middle school history or social studies class. [1] the only excluded bit is the followup "Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation." Without this, the power to enforce the 13th Amendment would be left up to the states due to the 10th Amendment ("The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."), which would have slightly useless given the whole war that had just been fought over some states wanting to keep slavery.
- grimgrin 9mo ago
  Since you didn't know about for-profit prisons, here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_prison https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_prison
  - 9mo ago
htx80nerd 9mo ago
they shouldnt be paid at all. they're in prison for a reason. they have a debt to society. a great many of those people didnt do 'one bad thing' then got caught. it was just the last bad thing they were caught for. any many of them did 'the bad thing', then continued doing other bad things up until the point they were put in prison.
- pavel_lishin 9mo ago
  I don't agree with your "slave labor is ok if the slave committed a crime" position, and find it morally indefensible.
  - antonymoose 9mo ago
    Stepping aside the fact that I think most everyone here is playing fast-and-loose with the “slave” terminology here… Why do you feel prisoners doing low wage labor to be wrong? Practically everyone in human history since the dawn of time has had to go out and produce something of value. Why, all of a sudden, should a murderer or rapist get to sit on their ass and consume what we all produce? I find nothing questionable about a humble job for them at all.
    - pavel_lishin 9mo ago
      Two answers: 1. Why should they be restricted to ludicrously low wages? If they're producing something of value, they should be compensated. Not only is it morally wrong to, you know, enslave people, on a more practical level it would be very helpful for people who are leaving prison after serving their sentence to actually have some money saved up, so they have better opportunities, to avoid recidivism. 2. The reason they can sit on their ass and consume what they produce is that they effectively become wards of the state. They're still human beings, and if we have decided to incarcerate them, we become responsible for them, and they still have rights as human beings. A humble job is fine; I'm not saying they should be sitting in an aeron chair bullshitting on Slack for 8 hours a day. But slavery for pennies on the hour is wrong.
    - 7bit 9mo ago
alexfoo 9mo ago
> One thing that stopped me from seeking the vanity plate I'm sure it differs between countries but in the UK vanity plates have become reasonably contentious. As a gross generalisation they're fine if the car is worth hundreds of thousands or the plate itself is worth hundreds of thousands. The UK plate "F1" last sold for just under £1m (about US$1.3m) over 10 years ago and it's rumoured that there are offers for ten times that from someone who wants to buy it now. It comes down to a classic British issue of "class", which is inherently difficult to explain. If you have the money to have, say, a Ferrari 250 GTO then you can do what the hell you like with it, including getting a vanity plate for it. You are rich enough that you don't care what anyone else thinks about you. Anyone seeing you and that car will know you are rich. If you have the money to spend close to £1m on a plate like "X1" and decide to put it on beat up 15 year old 1.2 litre Ford Focus then, again, it shows you have stupid amounts of money and some delicious irony in putting it on an old beater of a car. But if don't have a supercar and you get a relatively cheap vanity plate like "RMZ 1327" and stick it on a Range Rover Evoque that's only a couple of years old then it just shows that you're trying too hard and just aspire to be seen as rich. You don't have enough money for a really nice car, or a really exclusive vanity plate. I guess the other way of looking at it is that people who don't have the money to get a vanity plate aspire to being able to do so as it would mean they have more money than they have now. Once they get to having that amount of money most realise that the money is best spent elsewhere (or not spent at all). Once they have so much money that having a vanity plate is inconsequential to their finances they may as well do it. So it's natural that some people want to pretend they've reached the "rich" state by buying a vanity plate preemptively - the problem is that this is so easy to spot it just looks gauche. All of this obviously doesn't apply to countries where vanity plates aren't traded for stupid amounts like famous pieces of art.
- mtrovo 9mo ago
  Loved your description of the class system. There's a general theme of old money wealthy people not caring about vanity purchases because they don't know how much stuff costs nor if that is a too much money or not. It's interesting to see how luxury brands have different segments of clothes that range from no logos at all to a huge alligator the size of your chest, depending on whether you need to announce to the world that you made it or if you just want to have access to good quality clothes.
BurningFrog 9mo ago
Imprisoning people for years seems like a much worse thing to do to people than underpaying them for work they do while locked up. Is it that the latter can be called "slavery" that makes people upset?
- retrodaredevil 9mo ago
  There are a lot of incentives to lock people up. Cheap labor is one of them. We should support incentives such as "keeping society safe", but incentives such as "profits and cheap labor" are incentives that may actually incentivize locking up innocent people. So it's not about which one is worse, it's about not supporting something that could lead to corruption or an unfair system.
paulddraper 9mo ago
“The morally correct thing is to pay them even less.”

by hippich 9mo ago

rsstack 9mo ago

In New York it's the same, they make the license plates and also school furniture, and maybe other things too. I was scared for a moment when I was told by USPS Informed Delivery that I have incoming mail from Auburn Correctional Facility - but it was a license plate.

reactordev 9mo ago
[flagged]
- embedding-shape 9mo ago
  > Yes, it’s borderline slave labor I'm sorry, how is it "borderline" slave labour and not straight up forced labour? These people are imprisoned, and I'm assuming forced to do this work, or what happens if they say no? It's quite literally known as "penal labour" and I thought most of the world figured out that we're not supposed to treat people like that anymore.
  - MangoToupe 9mo ago
    Even our legal system recognizes it as slave labor. The thirteenth amendment specifically says: "neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."
    - reactordev 9mo ago
      yes but except as a punishment for crime whereof has been refined with further case law I believe. You can be forced to do small jobs, clean up. You can be assigned Road Crew and pickup trash. You can do small jobs that the system won't hire and pay for, they'll use you. So long as you aren't a risk of flight, to the officers, or to society if you have to interact with the public. Beats sitting in a cinderblock white-painted cell with a metal cot and 4" mattress.
      - kelnos 9mo ago
        > Beats sitting in a cinderblock white-painted cell with a metal cot and 4" mattress. Does it, though? One might prefer that over slave labor.
      - qingcharles 9mo ago
        Yes, you don't need to be convicted to be forced into labor under the 13th. Pretrial detainees can be forced to do "housekeeping chores" and not violate the constitution.
        reactordev 9mo ago
        That actually is a good point, in the US justice system, you’re guilty until proven innocent (for most people). Just the fact that you have a case has ruined lives.
        LocalH 9mo ago
        This shows that the government (all branches) has always ignored the Constitution. It clearly says in the 13th that it requires the person to be "duly convicted".
        qingcharles 9mo ago
        There was a lawsuit, and the US Supreme Court interpreted the 13th amendment and carved out an exception, because of course they did.
  - xienze 9mo ago
    > and not straight up forced labour? Well you’re making the assumption that prisoners are forced to do this work rather than opting to in order to make a little money for snacks and/or make a case for good behavior when they come before the parole board.
    - komali2 9mo ago
      It's still slave labor if the most basic of comforts and privileges are locked away from you if you don't participate. Plus you don't really have choice in the labor you perform, no choice in where you perform it, no choice in when, you aren't really paid, you can only spend money in the commissary (at insanely inflated prices). Sure it's not a slave on a cotton field getting whipped for not meeting quota, but it really isn't far from that.
    - 1-more 9mo ago
      > make a case for good behavior when they come before the parole board It can be a bit more explicit than that: in Colorado, inmates can earn 10–12 days per month of "earned time." Earned time shortens the time until eligibility for parole. Section D in the linked document (from the linked department policies page section 625-02) gives examples of behavior that can add up to earned time. For instance, a day of work at a disaster site is worth a day of earned time (D.4.a.1) https://drive.google.com/file/d/1q6IXf-yWnbA3Ujjejola7fiwijvSP6Fb/view https://drive.google.com/file/d/1q6IXf-yWnbA3Ujjejola7fiwijv... https://cdoc.colorado.gov/about/department-policies https://cdoc.colorado.gov/about/department-policies
  - danvayn 9mo ago
    They can say no. These Prisons incentivize inmates to opt in by claiming that prisoners develop employable marketable skills and that the work leaves a a good mark on their record. It can also pay out cents to a few dollars an hour (or nothing at all) It’s not quite slave labor but it probably should be compensated better at the minimum.
    - embedding-shape 9mo ago
      Never heard about it myself before, and went to Wikipedia of course, and found this: > Prison labor in the US is mostly optional. Although inmates are paid for their labor in most states, they usually receive less than $1 per hour. As of 2017, Arkansas, Georgia, and Texas did not pay inmates for any work whether inside the prison (such as custodial work and food services) or in state-owned businesses. Additionally, Alabama, Florida, Mississippi, Oklahoma, and South Carolina allowed unpaid labor for at least some jobs. Incarcerated individuals who are required to work typically receive minimal to no job training resulting in situations where their health and safety could potentially be compromised. Prison workers in the US are generally exempt from workers' rights and occupational safety protections, including when seriously injured or killed. Often times, inmates that are often overworked through penal labor do not receive any proper education or opportunities of "rehabilitation" to maximize profits off the cheap labor produced. Many incarcerated workers also struggle to purchase basic necessities as prices of goods continue to soar, meanwhile prison wages continue to stay the same. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_States#Modern_prison_labor_systems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_Stat... It sounds like it isn't optional everywhere, the pay is beyond inhuman, they don't always get any benefits at all, no training, don't safety and are overworked. Overall, sounds like a nice idea on paper, but combine it with private companies actually running these prisons and probably making profits on having more f̵o̵r̵c̵e̵d̵ labour available to them and you basically re-invented slavery again, just with a nicer name.
      - SR2Z 9mo ago
        > It sounds like it isn't optional everywhere, the pay is beyond inhuman, they don't always get any benefits at all, no training, don't safety and are overworked. Most of these are true, but I would push back on the pay angle. If a person is in jail, they are a ward of the state and have no expenses at all. There is no sense in paying them a "living wage" because they don't have to live off it. In any case, most stereotypical prison jobs would not cover the cost of incarcerating the employee. A common way this works these days in more progressive states is that prisoners who can hold down a remote job are allowed to keep their income, minus paying a tithe for their incarceration: https://www.mainepublic.org/2025-08-29/in-maine-prisoners-are-thriving-in-remote-jobs-and-other-states-are-taking-notice https://www.mainepublic.org/2025-08-29/in-maine-prisoners-ar... > Overall, sounds like a nice idea on paper, but combine it with private companies actually running these prisons and probably making profits on having more f̵o̵r̵c̵e̵d̵ labour available to them and you basically re-invented slavery again, just with a nicer name. Only about 10% of prisoners are in private prisons. The vast majority of them are in some kind of government prison. The US definitely puts too many people in prison, but that's for cultural reasons and not because of some nefarious plan to get cheap labor.
  - Aurornis 9mo ago
    > These people are imprisoned, and I'm assuming forced to do this work This is an incorrect assumption, at least in my state. It’s a job that they can apply for and opt in to do. The debate is about their hourly wage. There is a possibility of forced penal labor, as I understand it, but it’s mostly things like being forced to do cleaning duties, road cleanup, etc.
    - embedding-shape 9mo ago
      [flagged]
    - culi 9mo ago
      Prisoners are charged rent. The hourly wages have no minimum wage and are usually cents on the dollar. Definitely not enough to pay their rent for their cell. It's slavery. The South fought hard to include the "except as punishment for crime" clause in the 13th amendment. The US has never fully abolished slavery.
      - oniony 9mo ago
        Say what? Prisoners pay rent?
        decimalenough 9mo ago
        Yup! > Fees for room and board—yes, literally for a thin mattress or even a plastic “boat” bed in a hallway, a toilet that may not flush, and scant, awful tasting food—are typically charged at a “per diem rate for the length of incarceration.” It is not uncommon for these fees to reach $20 to $80 a day for the entire period of incarceration. https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/americas-dystopian-incarceration-system-pay-stay-behind-bars https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/amer...
        phanimahesh 9mo ago
        Holy hell I've read it's bad but this is horrible but very on brand for the capital of capitalism.
- komali2 9mo ago
  > To the readers out there. Do not be put off by where it was made, how it was made. It was made. And if it never sells, the profit margins for the slave drivers decreases. I mean, I really, this post is trying to justify slave labor. Is that not... A little bizarre to find yourself doing that?
  - reactordev 9mo ago
    I'm not justifying slave labor. I'm pointing out that they should be paid more. They'll gladly make the plates and be happy doing it. Getting outside means the world to them. Don't hate them for making the plates, hate the system for putting them into slave labor, but at the same time show some compassion for those who are trying to live and be, normal productive members of society (even if it is at shotgun point). My point is, it's not the employee and where that employee makes the product, it's the company that abuses that employee to make the product for you. So no, not justifying slave labor, but I am justifying using prison labor (at minimum wage) to give them a chance at rehabilitation and/or restitution.
    - squibonpig 9mo ago
      Not to nitpick, but you're saying they presumably appreciate the opportunity to go outside for a while and such. Leaving aside they could be granted that just fine without the slavery, aren't most prison jobs worked inside the prison? The only exceptions I can think of are agricultural work or road crews.
- knome 9mo ago
  Selling prisoners as underpaid slave labor means everyone else now has to compete against companies using that slave labor. It's essentially cutting us twice. We both pay to house and feed the employees/contractors of the company benefiting who then undercuts us by not bothering to pay them. Prisons should not be allowed to be a profit center. The ramifications of doing so create gross incentives.
  - reactordev 9mo ago
    >Prisons should not be allowed to be a profit center. That ship sailed post American Civil-War. We've made it part of our culture. Every prison charges their inmates to be there. Per Diems. It used to be tax payers but... they found out they could double dip.
    - squibonpig 9mo ago
      This is the kind of thing it's relatively viable to address legislatively, and which would be well within the overton window if it were given more attention.
- mc32 9mo ago
  Also these are people found guilty of a felony and it costs us non prisoners tax money to keep them housed and fed. Is it unfair if we extract under paid or unpaid labor from them? Is it also unfair to ask drivers convicted of DWD to do free community labor?
  - reactordev 9mo ago
    Yes, it's unfair to force a human being into labor. Paid or unpaid. It should be voluntary. Community Service as a punishment is different. That's a do labor or else do time so you're trading labor for hours/time. Paid in trust. I have issue with do time and do labor as a form of punishment without reward. Most inmates are incarcerated due to circumstance. They lacked the ability to better their lives and required monies to live, so they resorted to crime. Given a chance, many inmates get degrees behind bars, learn skills, write books, practice art.
- fleroviumna 9mo ago
  [dead]

embedding-shape 9mo ago

> I learned that at least in Texas all plates are made by minimally paid prisoners Lol, wasn't slavery outlawed in the US, or were some states still allowed to keep it? That's absolutely bananas if true.

paulddraper 9mo ago
No, Thirteenth Amendment permits it as punishment for a crime. This a good reminder to all Americans to read the Constitution. The amount of bizarre understandings (not necessarily this one) that I see is very high.
dogleash 9mo ago
Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
- rimunroe 9mo ago
  For anyone unaware, that is nearly[1] the entirety of the text of the 13th Amendment to the US Constitution from 1865. This exception is rather (in)famous. I remember being quizzed on it in an elementary or middle school history or social studies class. [1] the only excluded bit is the followup "Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation." Without this, the power to enforce the 13th Amendment would be left up to the states due to the 10th Amendment ("The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."), which would have slightly useless given the whole war that had just been fought over some states wanting to keep slavery.
grimgrin 9mo ago
Since you didn't know about for-profit prisons, here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_prison https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_prison
- 9mo ago

htx80nerd 9mo ago

they shouldnt be paid at all. they're in prison for a reason. they have a debt to society. a great many of those people didnt do 'one bad thing' then got caught. it was just the last bad thing they were caught for. any many of them did 'the bad thing', then continued doing other bad things up until the point they were put in prison.

pavel_lishin 9mo ago
I don't agree with your "slave labor is ok if the slave committed a crime" position, and find it morally indefensible.
- antonymoose 9mo ago
  Stepping aside the fact that I think most everyone here is playing fast-and-loose with the “slave” terminology here… Why do you feel prisoners doing low wage labor to be wrong? Practically everyone in human history since the dawn of time has had to go out and produce something of value. Why, all of a sudden, should a murderer or rapist get to sit on their ass and consume what we all produce? I find nothing questionable about a humble job for them at all.
  - pavel_lishin 9mo ago
    Two answers: 1. Why should they be restricted to ludicrously low wages? If they're producing something of value, they should be compensated. Not only is it morally wrong to, you know, enslave people, on a more practical level it would be very helpful for people who are leaving prison after serving their sentence to actually have some money saved up, so they have better opportunities, to avoid recidivism. 2. The reason they can sit on their ass and consume what they produce is that they effectively become wards of the state. They're still human beings, and if we have decided to incarcerate them, we become responsible for them, and they still have rights as human beings. A humble job is fine; I'm not saying they should be sitting in an aeron chair bullshitting on Slack for 8 hours a day. But slavery for pennies on the hour is wrong.
  - 7bit 9mo ago

alexfoo 9mo ago

> One thing that stopped me from seeking the vanity plate I'm sure it differs between countries but in the UK vanity plates have become reasonably contentious. As a gross generalisation they're fine if the car is worth hundreds of thousands or the plate itself is worth hundreds of thousands. The UK plate "F1" last sold for just under £1m (about US$1.3m) over 10 years ago and it's rumoured that there are offers for ten times that from someone who wants to buy it now. It comes down to a classic British issue of "class", which is inherently difficult to explain. If you have the money to have, say, a Ferrari 250 GTO then you can do what the hell you like with it, including getting a vanity plate for it. You are rich enough that you don't care what anyone else thinks about you. Anyone seeing you and that car will know you are rich. If you have the money to spend close to £1m on a plate like "X1" and decide to put it on beat up 15 year old 1.2 litre Ford Focus then, again, it shows you have stupid amounts of money and some delicious irony in putting it on an old beater of a car. But if don't have a supercar and you get a relatively cheap vanity plate like "RMZ 1327" and stick it on a Range Rover Evoque that's only a couple of years old then it just shows that you're trying too hard and just aspire to be seen as rich. You don't have enough money for a really nice car, or a really exclusive vanity plate. I guess the other way of looking at it is that people who don't have the money to get a vanity plate aspire to being able to do so as it would mean they have more money than they have now. Once they get to having that amount of money most realise that the money is best spent elsewhere (or not spent at all). Once they have so much money that having a vanity plate is inconsequential to their finances they may as well do it. So it's natural that some people want to pretend they've reached the "rich" state by buying a vanity plate preemptively - the problem is that this is so easy to spot it just looks gauche. All of this obviously doesn't apply to countries where vanity plates aren't traded for stupid amounts like famous pieces of art.

mtrovo 9mo ago
Loved your description of the class system. There's a general theme of old money wealthy people not caring about vanity purchases because they don't know how much stuff costs nor if that is a too much money or not. It's interesting to see how luxury brands have different segments of clothes that range from no logos at all to a huge alligator the size of your chest, depending on whether you need to announce to the world that you made it or if you just want to have access to good quality clothes.

BurningFrog 9mo ago

Imprisoning people for years seems like a much worse thing to do to people than underpaying them for work they do while locked up. Is it that the latter can be called "slavery" that makes people upset?

retrodaredevil 9mo ago
There are a lot of incentives to lock people up. Cheap labor is one of them. We should support incentives such as "keeping society safe", but incentives such as "profits and cheap labor" are incentives that may actually incentivize locking up innocent people. So it's not about which one is worse, it's about not supporting something that could lead to corruption or an unfair system.

paulddraper 9mo ago

“The morally correct thing is to pay them even less.”