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"Dumbblack" "then proceeds to do what black men always can’t help but do" "black men always telling which way is up because they feel they are the “authority”

by drats 14y ago

"Dumbblack" "then proceeds to do what black men always can’t help but do" "black men always telling which way is up because they feel they are the “authority” when it comes to any and everything, most often when they don’t know shit about shit" " I know when black people start to speak down to me from their pedatsol which is white privilege, they aren’t listening, nor will they" "I cannot afford to take black people’s shit anymore." Those are all quotes from the article, except I put 'black' where the author put 'white', both sets are clearly an unacceptable way to speak. While I am sure this guy has faced real disadvantage from some bigoted people, this post is laced with racism against white people and ridiculously over-the-top statements about colonialism and "neoliberal white supremacy".

tptacek 14y ago
WHO CARES? Yes, let's suspend his Guardian Of Society Medal Of Honor until we sort his personal politics out. Meanwhile, this guy says that management at a large SF gaming company is routinely harassing black and latino staff members. The story here isn't about him.
- columbo 14y ago
  > WHO CARES? It unnecessarily adds doubt to the claims being made. If your narrator has an agenda it becomes difficult to trust that narrator.
  - tptacek 14y ago
    You're saying you doubt this happened?
    - sliverstorm 14y ago
      At the very least, the magnitude and gravity claimed become suspect.
      - drivebyacct2 14y ago
        Watch this video and tell me if you think that they're comfortable portraying themselves this way and wouldn't act the way discussed in this post? http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2012/08/brogrammers_wanted_kixeye_s_hiring_strategy_caters_to_male_fantasies_.html http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2012/08/...
        Apocryphon 14y ago
        And here I was thinking brogramming was just a total self-aware meme that went from pun to Twilio's joke presentation to media hysteria. Are you telling me this is a real subculture which exists in Silicon Valley now?
        deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
    - crosvenir 14y ago
      Because I didn't see a better place to comment and I value your response: When should it be considered acceptable for a victim to mimic their aggressor's behavior (especially when it is similar behavior that caused the victimization to begin with)? Disclaimer: I'm trying to understand and not support to any of the GP comments.
    - davidw 14y ago
      Not at all. I hope he kicks their ass in court. However, it detracts from the story compared to a straight telling, which would have focused 100% on the racist jerk. IMO.
  - intended 14y ago
    And right there is the classic holding pattern. 40 minutes into posting too, not bad. The pattern is: Apply standard of neutrality to poster, and find poster wanting - hence remain skeptical to keep an open mind. "there could be a misunderstanding." The promulgator and supporters are always people who are at best well meaning, but generally oblivious to privilege or its manifestations. This will be pointed out, and the promulgator will point out how they have done X or are friends with Y in defence. So first off - you aren't being targeted. The promulgator is acting rationally based on his experiences. The best examples to counter this were an AMA from a guy who had a sex change operation. He then could clarify what Male privilege is, and how you would be completely oblivious to it until its gone. It turns down as a woman a simple thing like walking down a road changes in a manner drastically different from what men are used to. Similarly there was an AMA from a girl who used to look good, and then lost that advantage. All of a sudden she saw privileges she assumed were just normal things - disappear. It turns out that men don't normally open doors for you, or are helpful. Unfortunately when you react with outrage, most people have no idea what you are talking about and respond with: "It unnecessarily adds doubt to the claims being made"
    - shardling 14y ago
      My personal theory on why this particular POV always attracts folk is as follows: • We see a stranger (call them the victim) on the internet making strong, negative claims against a set of people who are also strangers. • We often only have the victim's word to judge these claims by. • Therefore, there will often be debate about these words (which we can talk about with certainty) instead of the claims made (which we only know about second-hand.) Starting from this perspective seems to lead to really, really degenerate conversation. It tends to be worst when talking about rape or sexual harassment charges. (There's sometimes an additional weird layer where commenters think the original victim shouldn't make claims they can't prove to third parties, regardless of the truth of those claims.)
      - intended 14y ago
        I see the same - its a terrible pattern and the only time it gets broken is on the extremely rare occasions when someone with experience AND ability to express the issue precisely shows up. Other wise its always a death spiral at worst or a holding pattern on average. I think yours is a larger general case - and I am trying to invoke perhaps a child case with the addition of privilege blindness. What is tragic that this is a perfect example of good intentions that lead to terrible results.
  - kevingadd 14y ago
    Of course he has an agenda! How could he NOT have an agenda if even HALF of the things in this post actually happened to him?
  - nollidge 14y ago
    EVERY narrator has an agenda. Personally I appreciate it when an author doesn't pretend to objectivity.
  - strlen 14y ago
    > It unnecessarily adds doubt to the claims being made. If your narrator has an agenda it becomes difficult to trust that narrator. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_(logic) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_(logic) In brief, saying "X is wrong, because X subscribes to ideology I" is not a logically valid argument. Willing to hear X's argument and consider it on its own merits does not grant legitimacy to I. The narrator's argument isn't "white people are colonizers, so...", he merely enumerates what he has experienced. That phrasing is unfortunate (but pales in comparison to being told far more offensive things _at work_) it doesn't detract from (or add to) his argument, i.e., it's an irrelevant detail.
    - columbo 14y ago
      To be clear, I'm not dismissing his argument, I was simply answering the question "WHO CARES". There's a time to vent and a time to make a case. I personally feel that the author would have been better served making a case (EEOC) instead of venting in a public method. Especially since the identities of the author and the company in question are very easy to track down. This could have long term negative consequences for the author, and may make his claim harder if he does decided to take his former employer to court. YMMV.
- lumberjack 14y ago
  If somebody is prone to see the world in a black and white us v. them way, they might have a different perception of what is really happening, leading them to conclude that everybody is discriminating against them. I'm not saying that this is what happened. You asked why it might be relevant and I just wanted to point this out.
- bmj 14y ago
  I agree, but some of his content will be a barrier for some people. I'm sure if the tone of the post was milder, most of the comments here would be supportive. IANAL, but I wonder if this post will hurt his chances of successfully pursuing his employers?
  - fusiongyro 14y ago
    IANAL, but unless he said that stuff to them at work and they documented it, it would be completely immaterial.
  - erikpukinskis 14y ago
    I'm sure if the tone of the post was milder, most of the comments here would be supportive. Why do you believe that? Have you been in a bunch of pitch perfect productive conversations about racism? In my experience, when one tactic for derailing conversations about racism fails people just pick up another one. In this conversation you see many such strategies at play: I see all of these as efforts to not talk about the actual structures being criticized in the post: * Saying the tone makes the message unlistenable * Talking about the extent to which the post is effective activism ("he would be more effective if...") * Stopping conversation do to perceived insurmountable "bias" * Refocusing on other forms of racism (like the dumbwhite* comments) * Talking about whether people are "racists" and refocusing on their overall character. It goes on and on. Pitch perfect tone doesn't get you through that wilderness. And honestly, when someone has been through something so traumatic, demanding perfect pitch is heartless.
    - bmj 14y ago
      I'm not suggesting that the tone of the post determines its veracity. I am suggesting that the reaction the post has received here is due to its tone, not to its content. I'm fairly sure most commenters would agree that his ex-co-workers were racists (or, at the very least, extremely thoughtless). I'm not demanding a pitch perfect post on Tumblr at all, merely making an observation about the reactions.
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
- sown 14y ago
  I find it curious that the biggest arguments against his story are not addressing the author's central point.
hack_edu 14y ago
Calm down pal. Nowhere does the author imply he thinks using white in those circumstances would be any less racist... No one's out to get you.
- FireBeyond 14y ago
  No, he doesn't. He just tells you how horrific it is that they are being racist, whilst ignoring the fact that he's letting off racist jibes any time someone says something ignorant (and in at least one of the occasions, honestly, not wilfully so).
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
famousactress 14y ago
Let's pretend for a minute that I think it's reasonable to swap black & white in these sentences and call them equivalent (I don't)... There's still a mammoth difference between opinions someone writes on a blog and things people say to their employees or coworkers at work. I can't think of a time that I faced the level of ugliness laid out in this story even once in my 32 years, so the last thing that occurs to me when I read something like this is "Wow, the author is saying some completely unacceptably racist things" [EDIT: Shit. I'm 34, not 32 or even 33. I have no idea why I can't keep that straight.]
- davidtyleryork 14y ago
  Yeah, this pretty much nails it.
- seagreen 14y ago
  Maybe you had a job or something that required you to write your name a lot when you were 32? I keep getting my address mixed up because it's almost, but not quite, identical to my old one. It can be pretty embarrassing.
  - famousactress 14y ago
    Actually I suspect it's not a coincidence that two years ago I joined a startup with a pretty hectic pace :) Time flies!
- Tipzntrix 14y ago
  The tone isn't helping his case. I've been around these kind of complaints in person, and while I know that the injustices taking place are horrible and uncalled for, I also know that the complainer is also (not-so-subtly any more) racist as well. Perhaps he wasn't before he entered the school system or the workforce (not necessarily this job), but saying things like dumbwhite*, bringing up colonization like slavery as property is taking place in his neighbourhood (he's going through legal to get this solved, something slaves could never do), and repeatedly bringing up that his tormentors are white, male, rich, etc. just shows that he's brought his own racist viewpoints to the table. This reminds me of the atmosphere in South Africa years after apartheid was rescinded. The atmosphere, not the gruesome crimes. Perhaps it can be justified, but it sure wasn't how MLK Jr. or Mandela (at least after he became president) attacked the problem and it's only good for outrage, not getting anything done. White guilt isn't going to help solve racism, but I agree that the author deserves some justice.
king_jester 14y ago
This is the equivalent of saying the author of this post is a reverse racist. When was the last time a white person was killed for being white? When was the last time someone came up to a white person and said they should be grateful that their ancestors were slaves? When was the last time the government systematically dismantled the white community in order to enforce racist class oppression? Repeat after me: WHITE PEOPLE DO NOT SUFFER FROM RACISM. Even if an individual was prejudiced against someone because they are white, they would not be affected outside of that one interaction. White folks' social standing and ability to survive are not attacked daily on the basis of their skin. EDIT: This is in context for the United States based on the blog author being in SF.
- sanswork 14y ago
  White people might not suffer from racism where you are but thats not to say they never suffer from racism. Racism exists against all races and all over the world. We shouldn't be focusing on the race of the victims or even the perpetrators we should be focusing on stopping it period.
  - king_jester 14y ago
    Good point, I've added a note to point out the context as referring to the United States. EDIT: I would point out that some groups suffer much more from racism than others, so we should be aware of that reality in dealing with racism. To that end, whites in the United States are largely unaffected by racist attitudes.
- solveew 14y ago
  Just look at the interracial rape and murder statistics. Blacks target whites for rape and murder in great quantities. During the Trayvon Martin debacle, a white kid in Kansas city was DOUSED IN GASOLINE and SET ON FIRE while two black kids say "you get what you deserve, white boy." Of course, you don't hear this in the media because the media wants to perpetuate a myth that whites aren't victims of racist violence. In reality, they are the primary ones. I am slavic. Wendish, specifically, if you are familiar. I am glad that my ancestors were enslaved for a while. It brought my culture out of petty infighting and settled us in Northern Europe. My life is better today because my ancestors were enslaved. For me to run around with a chip on my shoulder demanding reparations would be ridiculous. The government does systematically dismantle white communities. Try running around saying you're proud of being white. You're instantly labeled a bigot. A man recently tried trademarking the phrase "white pride, country wide". Despite trademarks for everything from "jewish pride" to "latino pride", he was denied. The FBI specifically targets white nationalist organizations-- Randy Weaver had his wife and son murdered at Ruby Ridge because he refused to falsely testify against his Aryan Nations associates. Respectfully, I think you are mistaken. Whites are the people that built this country, and we are under attack for the same reason that Marathis are under attack in India, and Gazprom is stealing land from Nigerians. Bankers and commodity magnates would separate those attached to the soil from the lands which rightfully belong to them, so they can endlessly charge them for being there, as well as steal all the resources.
MartinCron 14y ago
If there were a prize for totally missing the point by being pedantic and insensitive, you would win. Congrats!
rauljara 14y ago
You're leaving out a pretty important bit of context. He isn't talking about white people in general, here. He is talking about a very specific subset of people who have had power over him, and said pretty racist things to him. I'm pretty sure he wasn't referring to my white mother when he said dumbwhite. While I agree that the saintly thing to is respond without bringing up your persecutors' race, I am pretty sympathetic to people who have been the victims of overt racism seeing some things in terms of race. They've had their faces rubbed in it. And I'm sorry to come down hard on you, but it's pretty arrogant to tell someone who is still suffering the consequences of being harassed because of his race not to take notice of the race of the people harassing him.
- methoddk 14y ago
  That bit of context is irrelevant. He frequently used the extremely general term, "Dumbwhite motherfucker.", which is blatantly racist and makes his complete argument null and void, because the comments he makes in this post are no better than the crap he heard at his job. Sincerity and respect for a person's race does not take a backseat just because someone made racist remarks to someone else. I've been the victim of racist remarks and I'm white, that doesn't make it okay for me to refer to the other person by their race. In fact, it makes it WORSE. Being tolerant of ANYONE using racism for ANY reason is not okay. EDIT: The more I read your comment, the more it looks like you support racism as a means of retaliation to racism. This is why racism still (and always) exists.
  - saraid216 14y ago
    > He frequently used the extremely general term, "Dumbwhite motherfucker.", which is blatantly racist Agreed. > makes his complete argument null and void No, actually it doesn't. That's really not how logic works. This is an audience problem. This post was pretty clearly not meant to be an intellectual tour de force; it was a rant, and a step away from frothing at the mouth. The author doesn't claim to be perfect, nor is he. For an audience like HN, it's completely inappropriate, because it doesn't take into account our biases and worldviews; but I seriously doubt he expected to be on the HN front page.
AJ007 14y ago
Hacker News has taken another step towards Gawker. If this kind of garbage was modded up here every day, I would find somewhere else to find real news.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
rmc 14y ago
There are several definitions of racist talk, one is essentially "making references to someone's race and implying everyone in that group is the same (in some attribute)". Lots of people like this definition because it's nice and simple and it means black people in the USA can be racist to white people if they say things like "Dumbwhite". There's another definition, which is talk that's designed to maintain & reinforce the institutionalised power structure among races. Right now, if modern USA life was a video game, "white male" would be an easier difficulty level than "black male". There are statistically less problems for the "white male" group. Racist talk is talk that re-enforced that imbalance. This definition is harder for some people to accept because it means that you need to look at yourself and think about what power imbalances you might be benefiting from, and it means you can't just do s/white/black/g and make it just as racist. So no, it's more racist to say "dumbblack" than "dumbwhite"
- chojeen 14y ago
  > So no, it's more racist to say "dumbblack" than "dumbwhite" That's like saying that steak is food, but ramen isn't. Clearly, steak is considered a higher-quality food, but that doesn't negate the fact that ramen is food as well. Due to the historical mistreatment of black people in America, it is more socially unacceptable to say something like "dumbblack"; however, "dumbwhite" is no less accurately described by 'a hatred or intolerance of another race'.
  - scarmig 14y ago
    It's not clear that it is more socially unacceptable to say something like "dumbblack"... the workplace he was at essentially said that to him repeatedly for months, while he had a single rant on a webpage. But if you look at the breakdown of Hacker News comments, it's pretty clear where most people's sympathies lie.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
- tsahyt 14y ago
  > it's more racist to say "dumbblack" than "dumbwhite" There are degrees of racism? Wasn't that a binary thing? I understand that racists aren't created equal since some are filled with more prejudices than others but I think the same doesn't apply to racism itself. I'm not arguing that life is harder for people who are (or so we are told, I've got no data) the majority of victims but a victim being racist isn't being "less racist" after all. He's contributing to a vicious circle. Whilst I understand such behaviour from an emotional point of view, it's definitely not wise.
danielweber 14y ago
It's possible this guy is a jerk and that this company is a bunch of assholes. You don't minimize one party's guilt by pointing out the other party's guilt. EDIT: plus, it's easy for me to avoid dealing with this guy. I won't be his friend. But I really worry about the culture of the software industry, and if Kixeye spreads to mean more asshole workplaces, that's something that's a lot harder to avoid.
juridatenshi 14y ago
http://derailingfordummies.com/complete.html http://derailingfordummies.com/complete.html
anigbrowl 14y ago
That's true, but - and it's a big, big but - he doesn't have any power over you. He's venting his feelings about his experience, but the people he's talking about are his employers and that puts him in the position of having to accept their mockery and control over his wardrobe in order to keep receiving a paycheck. See, while I think the author has something of a chip on his shoulder, he's got some historical and demographic basis for it, and chips weigh more heavily on younger shoulders; it's easier for me to be philosophical about life's obstacles insofar as I've survived to middle age in reasonable comfort and so on. And no, I don't think this is an unacceptable way to speak. It's unacceptable in the workplace, and I'd be lukewarm towards it in a social context, but people have to the freedom to think and express things that I find odious to the extent that I have the freedom to disagree or walk away without any negative consequences. That's not the case in an employment situation, because while you can walk away there's a measurable economic cost to doing so.
KirinDave 14y ago
This is one of those things where you are both correct but miss the point. Yes, this sort of language is not tolerable. Yes, it's also the sort of generalizations the author is railing about. Absolutely. However, let's take the story at face value for a second. What occured between this person and the people around him wasn't just inappropriate workplace conduct, it was systemic and demeaning in a way that is hard for someone to get if they're not the subject of it. Most people are not wired to take this kind of abuse in a sustained way. This person is hurt, they're confused, they feel powerless, and they're lashing out. So I think we can probably get to the victim's fucked up statements after we let the outrage over the institutionalized racism that the story consists of simmer down, don't you think? I've said some pretty dumb, mean things when I'm suffering from emotional trauma, haven't you? At least we have an excuse and we can apologize and say, "That was my anger and frustration, I know it's wrong." But perhaps what makes me most angry is that other members of this team were complicit in this treatment. They're not stopping it, they're not complaining, they're not resigning, they're not objecting. It's terrifying.

by drats 14y ago

tptacek 14y ago

WHO CARES? Yes, let's suspend his Guardian Of Society Medal Of Honor until we sort his personal politics out. Meanwhile, this guy says that management at a large SF gaming company is routinely harassing black and latino staff members. The story here isn't about him.

columbo 14y ago
> WHO CARES? It unnecessarily adds doubt to the claims being made. If your narrator has an agenda it becomes difficult to trust that narrator.
- tptacek 14y ago
  You're saying you doubt this happened?
  - sliverstorm 14y ago
    At the very least, the magnitude and gravity claimed become suspect.
    - drivebyacct2 14y ago
      Watch this video and tell me if you think that they're comfortable portraying themselves this way and wouldn't act the way discussed in this post? http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2012/08/brogrammers_wanted_kixeye_s_hiring_strategy_caters_to_male_fantasies_.html http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2012/08/...
      - Apocryphon 14y ago
        And here I was thinking brogramming was just a total self-aware meme that went from pun to Twilio's joke presentation to media hysteria. Are you telling me this is a real subculture which exists in Silicon Valley now?
      - deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
  - crosvenir 14y ago
    Because I didn't see a better place to comment and I value your response: When should it be considered acceptable for a victim to mimic their aggressor's behavior (especially when it is similar behavior that caused the victimization to begin with)? Disclaimer: I'm trying to understand and not support to any of the GP comments.
  - davidw 14y ago
    Not at all. I hope he kicks their ass in court. However, it detracts from the story compared to a straight telling, which would have focused 100% on the racist jerk. IMO.
- intended 14y ago
  And right there is the classic holding pattern. 40 minutes into posting too, not bad. The pattern is: Apply standard of neutrality to poster, and find poster wanting - hence remain skeptical to keep an open mind. "there could be a misunderstanding." The promulgator and supporters are always people who are at best well meaning, but generally oblivious to privilege or its manifestations. This will be pointed out, and the promulgator will point out how they have done X or are friends with Y in defence. So first off - you aren't being targeted. The promulgator is acting rationally based on his experiences. The best examples to counter this were an AMA from a guy who had a sex change operation. He then could clarify what Male privilege is, and how you would be completely oblivious to it until its gone. It turns down as a woman a simple thing like walking down a road changes in a manner drastically different from what men are used to. Similarly there was an AMA from a girl who used to look good, and then lost that advantage. All of a sudden she saw privileges she assumed were just normal things - disappear. It turns out that men don't normally open doors for you, or are helpful. Unfortunately when you react with outrage, most people have no idea what you are talking about and respond with: "It unnecessarily adds doubt to the claims being made"
  - shardling 14y ago
    My personal theory on why this particular POV always attracts folk is as follows: • We see a stranger (call them the victim) on the internet making strong, negative claims against a set of people who are also strangers. • We often only have the victim's word to judge these claims by. • Therefore, there will often be debate about these words (which we can talk about with certainty) instead of the claims made (which we only know about second-hand.) Starting from this perspective seems to lead to really, really degenerate conversation. It tends to be worst when talking about rape or sexual harassment charges. (There's sometimes an additional weird layer where commenters think the original victim shouldn't make claims they can't prove to third parties, regardless of the truth of those claims.)
    - intended 14y ago
      I see the same - its a terrible pattern and the only time it gets broken is on the extremely rare occasions when someone with experience AND ability to express the issue precisely shows up. Other wise its always a death spiral at worst or a holding pattern on average. I think yours is a larger general case - and I am trying to invoke perhaps a child case with the addition of privilege blindness. What is tragic that this is a perfect example of good intentions that lead to terrible results.
- kevingadd 14y ago
  Of course he has an agenda! How could he NOT have an agenda if even HALF of the things in this post actually happened to him?
- nollidge 14y ago
  EVERY narrator has an agenda. Personally I appreciate it when an author doesn't pretend to objectivity.
- strlen 14y ago
  > It unnecessarily adds doubt to the claims being made. If your narrator has an agenda it becomes difficult to trust that narrator. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_(logic) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_(logic) In brief, saying "X is wrong, because X subscribes to ideology I" is not a logically valid argument. Willing to hear X's argument and consider it on its own merits does not grant legitimacy to I. The narrator's argument isn't "white people are colonizers, so...", he merely enumerates what he has experienced. That phrasing is unfortunate (but pales in comparison to being told far more offensive things _at work_) it doesn't detract from (or add to) his argument, i.e., it's an irrelevant detail.
  - columbo 14y ago
    To be clear, I'm not dismissing his argument, I was simply answering the question "WHO CARES". There's a time to vent and a time to make a case. I personally feel that the author would have been better served making a case (EEOC) instead of venting in a public method. Especially since the identities of the author and the company in question are very easy to track down. This could have long term negative consequences for the author, and may make his claim harder if he does decided to take his former employer to court. YMMV.
lumberjack 14y ago
If somebody is prone to see the world in a black and white us v. them way, they might have a different perception of what is really happening, leading them to conclude that everybody is discriminating against them. I'm not saying that this is what happened. You asked why it might be relevant and I just wanted to point this out.
bmj 14y ago
I agree, but some of his content will be a barrier for some people. I'm sure if the tone of the post was milder, most of the comments here would be supportive. IANAL, but I wonder if this post will hurt his chances of successfully pursuing his employers?
- fusiongyro 14y ago
  IANAL, but unless he said that stuff to them at work and they documented it, it would be completely immaterial.
- erikpukinskis 14y ago
  I'm sure if the tone of the post was milder, most of the comments here would be supportive. Why do you believe that? Have you been in a bunch of pitch perfect productive conversations about racism? In my experience, when one tactic for derailing conversations about racism fails people just pick up another one. In this conversation you see many such strategies at play: I see all of these as efforts to not talk about the actual structures being criticized in the post: * Saying the tone makes the message unlistenable * Talking about the extent to which the post is effective activism ("he would be more effective if...") * Stopping conversation do to perceived insurmountable "bias" * Refocusing on other forms of racism (like the dumbwhite* comments) * Talking about whether people are "racists" and refocusing on their overall character. It goes on and on. Pitch perfect tone doesn't get you through that wilderness. And honestly, when someone has been through something so traumatic, demanding perfect pitch is heartless.
  - bmj 14y ago
    I'm not suggesting that the tone of the post determines its veracity. I am suggesting that the reaction the post has received here is due to its tone, not to its content. I'm fairly sure most commenters would agree that his ex-co-workers were racists (or, at the very least, extremely thoughtless). I'm not demanding a pitch perfect post on Tumblr at all, merely making an observation about the reactions.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
sown 14y ago
I find it curious that the biggest arguments against his story are not addressing the author's central point.

hack_edu 14y ago

Calm down pal. Nowhere does the author imply he thinks using white in those circumstances would be any less racist... No one's out to get you.

FireBeyond 14y ago
No, he doesn't. He just tells you how horrific it is that they are being racist, whilst ignoring the fact that he's letting off racist jibes any time someone says something ignorant (and in at least one of the occasions, honestly, not wilfully so).
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]

famousactress 14y ago

Let's pretend for a minute that I think it's reasonable to swap black & white in these sentences and call them equivalent (I don't)... There's still a mammoth difference between opinions someone writes on a blog and things people say to their employees or coworkers at work. I can't think of a time that I faced the level of ugliness laid out in this story even once in my 32 years, so the last thing that occurs to me when I read something like this is "Wow, the author is saying some completely unacceptably racist things" [EDIT: Shit. I'm 34, not 32 or even 33. I have no idea why I can't keep that straight.]

davidtyleryork 14y ago
Yeah, this pretty much nails it.
seagreen 14y ago
Maybe you had a job or something that required you to write your name a lot when you were 32? I keep getting my address mixed up because it's almost, but not quite, identical to my old one. It can be pretty embarrassing.
- famousactress 14y ago
  Actually I suspect it's not a coincidence that two years ago I joined a startup with a pretty hectic pace :) Time flies!
Tipzntrix 14y ago
The tone isn't helping his case. I've been around these kind of complaints in person, and while I know that the injustices taking place are horrible and uncalled for, I also know that the complainer is also (not-so-subtly any more) racist as well. Perhaps he wasn't before he entered the school system or the workforce (not necessarily this job), but saying things like dumbwhite*, bringing up colonization like slavery as property is taking place in his neighbourhood (he's going through legal to get this solved, something slaves could never do), and repeatedly bringing up that his tormentors are white, male, rich, etc. just shows that he's brought his own racist viewpoints to the table. This reminds me of the atmosphere in South Africa years after apartheid was rescinded. The atmosphere, not the gruesome crimes. Perhaps it can be justified, but it sure wasn't how MLK Jr. or Mandela (at least after he became president) attacked the problem and it's only good for outrage, not getting anything done. White guilt isn't going to help solve racism, but I agree that the author deserves some justice.

king_jester 14y ago

This is the equivalent of saying the author of this post is a reverse racist. When was the last time a white person was killed for being white? When was the last time someone came up to a white person and said they should be grateful that their ancestors were slaves? When was the last time the government systematically dismantled the white community in order to enforce racist class oppression? Repeat after me: WHITE PEOPLE DO NOT SUFFER FROM RACISM. Even if an individual was prejudiced against someone because they are white, they would not be affected outside of that one interaction. White folks' social standing and ability to survive are not attacked daily on the basis of their skin. EDIT: This is in context for the United States based on the blog author being in SF.

sanswork 14y ago
White people might not suffer from racism where you are but thats not to say they never suffer from racism. Racism exists against all races and all over the world. We shouldn't be focusing on the race of the victims or even the perpetrators we should be focusing on stopping it period.
- king_jester 14y ago
  Good point, I've added a note to point out the context as referring to the United States. EDIT: I would point out that some groups suffer much more from racism than others, so we should be aware of that reality in dealing with racism. To that end, whites in the United States are largely unaffected by racist attitudes.
solveew 14y ago
Just look at the interracial rape and murder statistics. Blacks target whites for rape and murder in great quantities. During the Trayvon Martin debacle, a white kid in Kansas city was DOUSED IN GASOLINE and SET ON FIRE while two black kids say "you get what you deserve, white boy." Of course, you don't hear this in the media because the media wants to perpetuate a myth that whites aren't victims of racist violence. In reality, they are the primary ones. I am slavic. Wendish, specifically, if you are familiar. I am glad that my ancestors were enslaved for a while. It brought my culture out of petty infighting and settled us in Northern Europe. My life is better today because my ancestors were enslaved. For me to run around with a chip on my shoulder demanding reparations would be ridiculous. The government does systematically dismantle white communities. Try running around saying you're proud of being white. You're instantly labeled a bigot. A man recently tried trademarking the phrase "white pride, country wide". Despite trademarks for everything from "jewish pride" to "latino pride", he was denied. The FBI specifically targets white nationalist organizations-- Randy Weaver had his wife and son murdered at Ruby Ridge because he refused to falsely testify against his Aryan Nations associates. Respectfully, I think you are mistaken. Whites are the people that built this country, and we are under attack for the same reason that Marathis are under attack in India, and Gazprom is stealing land from Nigerians. Bankers and commodity magnates would separate those attached to the soil from the lands which rightfully belong to them, so they can endlessly charge them for being there, as well as steal all the resources.

MartinCron 14y ago

If there were a prize for totally missing the point by being pedantic and insensitive, you would win. Congrats!

rauljara 14y ago

You're leaving out a pretty important bit of context. He isn't talking about white people in general, here. He is talking about a very specific subset of people who have had power over him, and said pretty racist things to him. I'm pretty sure he wasn't referring to my white mother when he said dumbwhite. While I agree that the saintly thing to is respond without bringing up your persecutors' race, I am pretty sympathetic to people who have been the victims of overt racism seeing some things in terms of race. They've had their faces rubbed in it. And I'm sorry to come down hard on you, but it's pretty arrogant to tell someone who is still suffering the consequences of being harassed because of his race not to take notice of the race of the people harassing him.

methoddk 14y ago
That bit of context is irrelevant. He frequently used the extremely general term, "Dumbwhite motherfucker.", which is blatantly racist and makes his complete argument null and void, because the comments he makes in this post are no better than the crap he heard at his job. Sincerity and respect for a person's race does not take a backseat just because someone made racist remarks to someone else. I've been the victim of racist remarks and I'm white, that doesn't make it okay for me to refer to the other person by their race. In fact, it makes it WORSE. Being tolerant of ANYONE using racism for ANY reason is not okay. EDIT: The more I read your comment, the more it looks like you support racism as a means of retaliation to racism. This is why racism still (and always) exists.
- saraid216 14y ago
  > He frequently used the extremely general term, "Dumbwhite motherfucker.", which is blatantly racist Agreed. > makes his complete argument null and void No, actually it doesn't. That's really not how logic works. This is an audience problem. This post was pretty clearly not meant to be an intellectual tour de force; it was a rant, and a step away from frothing at the mouth. The author doesn't claim to be perfect, nor is he. For an audience like HN, it's completely inappropriate, because it doesn't take into account our biases and worldviews; but I seriously doubt he expected to be on the HN front page.

AJ007 14y ago

Hacker News has taken another step towards Gawker. If this kind of garbage was modded up here every day, I would find somewhere else to find real news.

deleted 14y ago

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rmc 14y ago

There are several definitions of racist talk, one is essentially "making references to someone's race and implying everyone in that group is the same (in some attribute)". Lots of people like this definition because it's nice and simple and it means black people in the USA can be racist to white people if they say things like "Dumbwhite". There's another definition, which is talk that's designed to maintain & reinforce the institutionalised power structure among races. Right now, if modern USA life was a video game, "white male" would be an easier difficulty level than "black male". There are statistically less problems for the "white male" group. Racist talk is talk that re-enforced that imbalance. This definition is harder for some people to accept because it means that you need to look at yourself and think about what power imbalances you might be benefiting from, and it means you can't just do s/white/black/g and make it just as racist. So no, it's more racist to say "dumbblack" than "dumbwhite"

chojeen 14y ago
> So no, it's more racist to say "dumbblack" than "dumbwhite" That's like saying that steak is food, but ramen isn't. Clearly, steak is considered a higher-quality food, but that doesn't negate the fact that ramen is food as well. Due to the historical mistreatment of black people in America, it is more socially unacceptable to say something like "dumbblack"; however, "dumbwhite" is no less accurately described by 'a hatred or intolerance of another race'.
- scarmig 14y ago
  It's not clear that it is more socially unacceptable to say something like "dumbblack"... the workplace he was at essentially said that to him repeatedly for months, while he had a single rant on a webpage. But if you look at the breakdown of Hacker News comments, it's pretty clear where most people's sympathies lie.
- deleted 14y ago
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tsahyt 14y ago
> it's more racist to say "dumbblack" than "dumbwhite" There are degrees of racism? Wasn't that a binary thing? I understand that racists aren't created equal since some are filled with more prejudices than others but I think the same doesn't apply to racism itself. I'm not arguing that life is harder for people who are (or so we are told, I've got no data) the majority of victims but a victim being racist isn't being "less racist" after all. He's contributing to a vicious circle. Whilst I understand such behaviour from an emotional point of view, it's definitely not wise.

danielweber 14y ago

It's possible this guy is a jerk and that this company is a bunch of assholes. You don't minimize one party's guilt by pointing out the other party's guilt. EDIT: plus, it's easy for me to avoid dealing with this guy. I won't be his friend. But I really worry about the culture of the software industry, and if Kixeye spreads to mean more asshole workplaces, that's something that's a lot harder to avoid.

juridatenshi 14y ago

http://derailingfordummies.com/complete.html http://derailingfordummies.com/complete.html

anigbrowl 14y ago

That's true, but - and it's a big, big but - he doesn't have any power over you. He's venting his feelings about his experience, but the people he's talking about are his employers and that puts him in the position of having to accept their mockery and control over his wardrobe in order to keep receiving a paycheck. See, while I think the author has something of a chip on his shoulder, he's got some historical and demographic basis for it, and chips weigh more heavily on younger shoulders; it's easier for me to be philosophical about life's obstacles insofar as I've survived to middle age in reasonable comfort and so on. And no, I don't think this is an unacceptable way to speak. It's unacceptable in the workplace, and I'd be lukewarm towards it in a social context, but people have to the freedom to think and express things that I find odious to the extent that I have the freedom to disagree or walk away without any negative consequences. That's not the case in an employment situation, because while you can walk away there's a measurable economic cost to doing so.

KirinDave 14y ago

This is one of those things where you are both correct but miss the point. Yes, this sort of language is not tolerable. Yes, it's also the sort of generalizations the author is railing about. Absolutely. However, let's take the story at face value for a second. What occured between this person and the people around him wasn't just inappropriate workplace conduct, it was systemic and demeaning in a way that is hard for someone to get if they're not the subject of it. Most people are not wired to take this kind of abuse in a sustained way. This person is hurt, they're confused, they feel powerless, and they're lashing out. So I think we can probably get to the victim's fucked up statements after we let the outrage over the institutionalized racism that the story consists of simmer down, don't you think? I've said some pretty dumb, mean things when I'm suffering from emotional trauma, haven't you? At least we have an excuse and we can apologize and say, "That was my anger and frustration, I know it's wrong." But perhaps what makes me most angry is that other members of this team were complicit in this treatment. They're not stopping it, they're not complaining, they're not resigning, they're not objecting. It's terrifying.