8 ms·

Middlemen Are Eating the World (and That's Good, Actually)

14 points by LinchZhang 10mo ago

LinchZhang 10mo ago
I think many people have some intuition that work can be separated between “real work“ (farming, say, or building trains) and “middlemen” (e.g. accounting, salespeople, lawyers, bureaucrats, DEI strategists). “Bullshit jobs” by David Graeber is a more intellectualized framing of the same intuition. Many people believe that middlemen are entirely useless, and we can get rid of (almost) all middleman jobs, RETVRN to people doing real work, and society would be much better off. Like many populist intuitions, this intuition is completely backwards. Middlemen are extremely important! Coordination problems are real problems, and the bottlenecks to global wealth and flourishing. The post goes into details for why.
- ToucanLoucan 10mo ago
  These examples are not good, almost none of those are what most people would call middlemen. A perfect example of an actual middleman would be the type of hustle grindset loser who sets up an Amazon store that sells merchandise from Alibaba at steep price hikes while contributing nothing to the product or its delivery. That’s a middle man.
  - kykat 10mo ago
    Yep, you can't just "redefine" a noun to get a clickbait title
    - christophilus 10mo ago
      I mean, you just described a whole lot of the internet.
      - ToucanLoucan 10mo ago
        I mean, you can do it but nobody calls that good, worthwhile reading.
  - LinchZhang 10mo ago
    Why fixate on a specific word rather than the overall idea? If the idea is clear enough I don't think it's worth fighting over semantics.
    - exmadscientist 10mo ago
      It isn't clear enough, though. Your argument is actually seriously muddled by your choice to redefine the common usage of a word to your own usage. The viability of your title flips depending on whether one adopts your definition or the common definition. That's bad writing.
    - ToucanLoucan 10mo ago
      It's not semantics, it's your entire point: > A merchant a) physically moves wheat to where it’s scarce (and valued more), b) physically moves beans to where it’s scarce (and valued more), c) figures out an exchange rate, and d) takes on risks of spoilage and banditry. For her efforts, the merchant takes a fractional cut. This is not a middle man, this is logistics! An entire segment of the global economy, and not a small one! > Ten people want to build a bridge. But they face problems: Who works on the foundation vs. the supports? How do we prevent the left side team from building something incompatible with the right side team? When is the foundation strong enough to start building on top? How do we know if we’re on track or behind schedule? This is project management, also not a middle man! Like I get nobody likes being criticized but dude, your entire post is resting on a bad foundation. If you start off an article about cars talking about how jetskis are the future of highway transportation, I'm not gonna take that seriously either, because you fumbled it on the starting line.
    - russelldjimmy 10mo ago
      I think many readers have a hard time letting go of whatever expectation the title created in their mind and then refocusing to try and understand the broader point. Not that I support clickbait titles or poor communication, but I do agree with you that it’s generally more helpful to let go of the semantic details as long as the broader point is understood. But many people choose to get hung up over the words (probably) because of an inability to self soothe the first shock.
  - AndrewDucker 10mo ago
    In which case they're contributing discoverability. Because clearly the buyer didn't discover the original store themselves, but did find it on Amazon.
- vlovich123 10mo ago
  The problem is the value tends to be ephemeral and single use. Once the connection is established, the parties are better off communicating directly. That’s why marketplaces like TaskRabbit struggle to generalize and grow. Contracting firms often struggle in similar ways and try to put clauses in their contracts to retain their relevance.
JohnFen 10mo ago
Boy did this set off my pendant side! > “middlemen” (e.g. accounting, salespeople, lawyers, bureaucrats, DEI strategists). I wouldn't call any of those positions "middlemen", though. A middleman is an entity that sits between a producer and a purchaser and takes a cut, usually by connecting the two. None of the examples listed are that.
- LinchZhang 10mo ago
  I agree I used the word substantially more expansively than some other people use it. That's why I defined it in the beginning so people can understand the local scoping of the relevant word! :) (That said "salespeople" are in the middle layer under your definition as well) The other term I was thinking of using for this post was "bullshit jobs." So titling my post "bullshit jobs are real jobs" but I didn't want to fight against the motte-and-bailey of specific jobs being possibly bullshit jobs. ("coordinators" presumed the conclusion too much and also points to a specific thing )
  - llbbdd 10mo ago
    Salespeople do provide a service - selling.
  - random3 10mo ago
    Your definition is off in a few ways: Middlemen are brokers, intermediaries. Almost every job is in the middle of something including the ones labeled “real” - e.g. manufacturing uses some things to produce others. Some of the jobs you refer to as middle, are not actually middle - e.g. accounting. You probably wanted to refer to white collar jobs or maybe just services. Middleman are not what you think and your argument sounds off from the bat just because you use that word.
- polishdude20 10mo ago
  I'll be the pedant and say the word is "pedant" :)
  - OneMorePerson 10mo ago
AuthAuth 10mo ago
>Bloody bean counters! Mate they just need to pick up a toolbelt and do some real work all they do is fuck everything up. A sentiment often expressed by my dad as the 'bean counters' organize 1000s of people across 100s of companies and tons and tons of materials and machinery to all arrive on site and preform specific tasks in an efficient manner.
- linksnapzz 10mo ago
  ...a task done equally well during Egypt's 4th dynasty; without the benefit of ERP, Gantt charts, or MBAs.
efitz 10mo ago
I think most people, when they think of “middleman”, thinks “rent seeker by means of bottlenecking an upstream producer”. I don’t know why one would classify an accountant as a middleman.
bokohut 10mo ago
Ah, the term "Middlemen" of which I have personally been one in fintech as the core architectural founder several times. Given that much of technology originates and is perfected by the adult content industry, for those unaware, payments is no exception to this rule just as live video and audio software development was directly impacted from this adult content demand. It is claimed that sex sells and I can attest 100% to this claim being correct as a movie was even made about the payment system I was foundational in building and that movie was ironically called "Middlemen". I was younger then and the personal stories from those days I carry could have a great mini series created. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Men_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Men_(film) Stay Healthy!
- LinchZhang 10mo ago
  Thanks, appreciate the anecdote!

14 points by LinchZhang 10mo ago

I think many people have some intuition that work can be separated between “real work“ (farming, say, or building trains) and “middlemen” (e.g. accounting, salespeople, lawyers, bureaucrats, DEI strategists). “Bullshit jobs” by David Graeber is a more intellectualized framing of the same intuition. Many people believe that middlemen are entirely useless, and we can get rid of (almost) all middleman jobs, RETVRN to people doing real work, and society would be much better off. Like many populist intuitions, this intuition is completely backwards. Middlemen are extremely important! Coordination problems are real problems, and the bottlenecks to global wealth and flourishing. The post goes into details for why.

ToucanLoucan 10mo ago
These examples are not good, almost none of those are what most people would call middlemen. A perfect example of an actual middleman would be the type of hustle grindset loser who sets up an Amazon store that sells merchandise from Alibaba at steep price hikes while contributing nothing to the product or its delivery. That’s a middle man.
- kykat 10mo ago
  Yep, you can't just "redefine" a noun to get a clickbait title
  - christophilus 10mo ago
    I mean, you just described a whole lot of the internet.
    - ToucanLoucan 10mo ago
      I mean, you can do it but nobody calls that good, worthwhile reading.
- LinchZhang 10mo ago
  Why fixate on a specific word rather than the overall idea? If the idea is clear enough I don't think it's worth fighting over semantics.
  - exmadscientist 10mo ago
    It isn't clear enough, though. Your argument is actually seriously muddled by your choice to redefine the common usage of a word to your own usage. The viability of your title flips depending on whether one adopts your definition or the common definition. That's bad writing.
  - ToucanLoucan 10mo ago
    It's not semantics, it's your entire point: > A merchant a) physically moves wheat to where it’s scarce (and valued more), b) physically moves beans to where it’s scarce (and valued more), c) figures out an exchange rate, and d) takes on risks of spoilage and banditry. For her efforts, the merchant takes a fractional cut. This is not a middle man, this is logistics! An entire segment of the global economy, and not a small one! > Ten people want to build a bridge. But they face problems: Who works on the foundation vs. the supports? How do we prevent the left side team from building something incompatible with the right side team? When is the foundation strong enough to start building on top? How do we know if we’re on track or behind schedule? This is project management, also not a middle man! Like I get nobody likes being criticized but dude, your entire post is resting on a bad foundation. If you start off an article about cars talking about how jetskis are the future of highway transportation, I'm not gonna take that seriously either, because you fumbled it on the starting line.
  - russelldjimmy 10mo ago
    I think many readers have a hard time letting go of whatever expectation the title created in their mind and then refocusing to try and understand the broader point. Not that I support clickbait titles or poor communication, but I do agree with you that it’s generally more helpful to let go of the semantic details as long as the broader point is understood. But many people choose to get hung up over the words (probably) because of an inability to self soothe the first shock.
- AndrewDucker 10mo ago
  In which case they're contributing discoverability. Because clearly the buyer didn't discover the original store themselves, but did find it on Amazon.
vlovich123 10mo ago
The problem is the value tends to be ephemeral and single use. Once the connection is established, the parties are better off communicating directly. That’s why marketplaces like TaskRabbit struggle to generalize and grow. Contracting firms often struggle in similar ways and try to put clauses in their contracts to retain their relevance.

JohnFen 10mo ago

Boy did this set off my pendant side! > “middlemen” (e.g. accounting, salespeople, lawyers, bureaucrats, DEI strategists). I wouldn't call any of those positions "middlemen", though. A middleman is an entity that sits between a producer and a purchaser and takes a cut, usually by connecting the two. None of the examples listed are that.

LinchZhang 10mo ago
I agree I used the word substantially more expansively than some other people use it. That's why I defined it in the beginning so people can understand the local scoping of the relevant word! :) (That said "salespeople" are in the middle layer under your definition as well) The other term I was thinking of using for this post was "bullshit jobs." So titling my post "bullshit jobs are real jobs" but I didn't want to fight against the motte-and-bailey of specific jobs being possibly bullshit jobs. ("coordinators" presumed the conclusion too much and also points to a specific thing )
- llbbdd 10mo ago
  Salespeople do provide a service - selling.
- random3 10mo ago
  Your definition is off in a few ways: Middlemen are brokers, intermediaries. Almost every job is in the middle of something including the ones labeled “real” - e.g. manufacturing uses some things to produce others. Some of the jobs you refer to as middle, are not actually middle - e.g. accounting. You probably wanted to refer to white collar jobs or maybe just services. Middleman are not what you think and your argument sounds off from the bat just because you use that word.
polishdude20 10mo ago
I'll be the pedant and say the word is "pedant" :)
- OneMorePerson 10mo ago

AuthAuth 10mo ago

>Bloody bean counters! Mate they just need to pick up a toolbelt and do some real work all they do is fuck everything up. A sentiment often expressed by my dad as the 'bean counters' organize 1000s of people across 100s of companies and tons and tons of materials and machinery to all arrive on site and preform specific tasks in an efficient manner.

linksnapzz 10mo ago
...a task done equally well during Egypt's 4th dynasty; without the benefit of ERP, Gantt charts, or MBAs.

efitz 10mo ago

I think most people, when they think of “middleman”, thinks “rent seeker by means of bottlenecking an upstream producer”. I don’t know why one would classify an accountant as a middleman.

bokohut 10mo ago

Ah, the term "Middlemen" of which I have personally been one in fintech as the core architectural founder several times. Given that much of technology originates and is perfected by the adult content industry, for those unaware, payments is no exception to this rule just as live video and audio software development was directly impacted from this adult content demand. It is claimed that sex sells and I can attest 100% to this claim being correct as a movie was even made about the payment system I was foundational in building and that movie was ironically called "Middlemen". I was younger then and the personal stories from those days I carry could have a great mini series created. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Men_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Men_(film) Stay Healthy!

LinchZhang 10mo ago
Thanks, appreciate the anecdote!