5 ms·

Honestly, it sounds like the usual clichéd advice. I was expecting something more practical, like doing an interview every six months or something along those

Honestly, it sounds like the usual clichéd advice. I was expecting something more practical, like doing an interview every six months or something along those lines. Supervisors and HR just smile and nod. Maybe if he had a better relationship with his manager, he would’ve realised sooner that he was just wasting his time. Documentation is like an untested disaster recovery plan. When a major issue happens, you’ll be the one called. You should delegate or automate the task and remove it from your workload, especially if it carries high risk. I’d actually love to read the dark arts equivalent of this article.

neilv 10mo ago
> I was expecting [...] like doing an interview every six months Incidentally, I hear advice like that (especially a variation, of "practice" interviews) on HN, but I really wish people wouldn't do that. Actually, please don't do this resource burning with startups or other SMBs, unless it's clear they want to burn resources. But feel free to burn the resources of FAANGs, who mostly created the idea that interviews should be a series of performance rituals that you have to practice and refresh on. (Though the related phenomenon, of techbro frequent job-hopping, wasn't the fault of FAANGs. It seemed to start during the dotcom boom, pre-Google, especially in the Bay Area, AFAICT, where a lot of people were chasing the most promising rapid IPO. At the time, the rumors/grumbling I was hearing from the Bay Area made me want to do a startup in Cambridge/Boston instead, just to avoid that culture. After the dotcom IPO gold rush ended, it seemed that job-hopping for big pay boosts and promotions became a thing, and that job-hopping culture never went away. But I don't think we'll find much team loyalty anywhere anymore, not from companies nor from colleagues, so that's no longer a reason I'd avoid the Bay Area specifically.)
- atherton94027 10mo ago
  > Actually, please don't do this resource burning with startups or other SMBs, unless it's clear they want to burn resources Startups are fine scheduling candidates for 5-6 rounds of interviews, they should be fine with the occasional tire-kicker
  - jay_kyburz 10mo ago
    You can't know your market worth without putting yourself on the market.
  - neilv 10mo ago
    > Startups are fine scheduling candidates for 5-6 rounds of interviews, Not all startups are like that, and you might not know in advance. Though, incidentally, I did find one about a month ago, and I will take this moment of inspiration to complain about it, constructively. I bowed out of an imminent offer, because I thought that the CTO's gauntlet of evaluation steps was a sign of the day-to-day I should expect: that I would only be valued like an untrusted junior commodity worker. (I have a lot of experience, my detailed resume shows that, and I'd been patient and met more than halfway with the process.) Meanwhile, the initial pitch about why I might want to work there had worn off, after 5+ calls and a takehome. I wasn't going to invest any more time+energy+soul, submitting to the final grilling/hazing step, of a job I no longer wanted. ProTip: Unless you are a FAANG, or are paying FAANG-like money, don't act like one towards prospective hires/colleagues. Otherwise, you should expect to hire only people who are moderately good at interviewing (good enough to pass your nonsense, but not the nonsense of the people who pay more). And you should expect them to hop without loyalty, because you do FAANG arrogance and nonsense, without paying for the privilege.
- bdangubic 10mo ago
  I don’t think SWEs realize just how many companies out there will look at a resume of a job hopper (even if there is 10 years at FAANG, say 2 at each) and outright reject the candidate on those grounds.
  - fn-mote 10mo ago
    You’re hiring a job hopper because they have skills you need NOW. They are job hopping because they want high level compensation and maybe a position on an high-impact team, instead of being sidelined and powerless against the disrespect of their manager. Your company can make those work together. I’m not saying every job hopper is the right hire. I am offering a reason they get hired anyway (availability!) and leave anyway (respect and $$).
    - bdangubic 10mo ago
      “they have skills you have NOW” is exactly like saying “she/he cute NOW I need to get married” :) Needing something now is a recipe for disaster and I am happy I never needed (nor will need) anyone now
  - bongodongobob 10mo ago
    Absolutely. I had a stretch of consulting gigs for a couple years and I recently was denied an interview because they "didn't like the short periods of employment" even though they were specifically indicated as short term contract jobs!
    - RealityVoid 10mo ago
      I understand ever having done consulting is seen as a red flag now, so that might be more to blame.
      - neilv 10mo ago
        A recruiter gave me the terse feedback about "too long consulting" from one company. (And it didn't fit any rational objection I could think of, if they'd actually looked at the resume, beyond triggering on a keyword.) I think a root problem is that many companies are bad at hiring, and many of those get confidently bad at it. In institutional emergent behavior terms, as well as individual actor terms.
- ghaff 10mo ago
  There's probably some happy-ish medium of people toughing it out through a bad situation they don't feel they can change--and jumping at the first instance of itchy feet (which is admittedly harder at the moment). Not sure when the job-hopping culture--especially on the west coast--really came in. I do associate it with post-dot com but I'd really have to look at the data. Certainly wasn't really true pre dot-com at large tech employers.
- neofrommatrix 10mo ago
  Honestly, if companies cared enough about the interviewees time as well, people wouldn’t do this. I was looking for a few months, and companies put you through the wringer of 6-9 interviews these days. Two should tell you whether a candidate is a good fit or not. Then there’s the case interviews where candidates put in dozens of hours prepping decks and what not, and then get rejected without any feedback at all. And this was exclusively at SMBs and startups. At least, the FAANG companies have structure and you know what to expect.

neilv 10mo ago

> I was expecting [...] like doing an interview every six months Incidentally, I hear advice like that (especially a variation, of "practice" interviews) on HN, but I really wish people wouldn't do that. Actually, please don't do this resource burning with startups or other SMBs, unless it's clear they want to burn resources. But feel free to burn the resources of FAANGs, who mostly created the idea that interviews should be a series of performance rituals that you have to practice and refresh on. (Though the related phenomenon, of techbro frequent job-hopping, wasn't the fault of FAANGs. It seemed to start during the dotcom boom, pre-Google, especially in the Bay Area, AFAICT, where a lot of people were chasing the most promising rapid IPO. At the time, the rumors/grumbling I was hearing from the Bay Area made me want to do a startup in Cambridge/Boston instead, just to avoid that culture. After the dotcom IPO gold rush ended, it seemed that job-hopping for big pay boosts and promotions became a thing, and that job-hopping culture never went away. But I don't think we'll find much team loyalty anywhere anymore, not from companies nor from colleagues, so that's no longer a reason I'd avoid the Bay Area specifically.)

atherton94027 10mo ago
> Actually, please don't do this resource burning with startups or other SMBs, unless it's clear they want to burn resources Startups are fine scheduling candidates for 5-6 rounds of interviews, they should be fine with the occasional tire-kicker
- jay_kyburz 10mo ago
  You can't know your market worth without putting yourself on the market.
- neilv 10mo ago
  > Startups are fine scheduling candidates for 5-6 rounds of interviews, Not all startups are like that, and you might not know in advance. Though, incidentally, I did find one about a month ago, and I will take this moment of inspiration to complain about it, constructively. I bowed out of an imminent offer, because I thought that the CTO's gauntlet of evaluation steps was a sign of the day-to-day I should expect: that I would only be valued like an untrusted junior commodity worker. (I have a lot of experience, my detailed resume shows that, and I'd been patient and met more than halfway with the process.) Meanwhile, the initial pitch about why I might want to work there had worn off, after 5+ calls and a takehome. I wasn't going to invest any more time+energy+soul, submitting to the final grilling/hazing step, of a job I no longer wanted. ProTip: Unless you are a FAANG, or are paying FAANG-like money, don't act like one towards prospective hires/colleagues. Otherwise, you should expect to hire only people who are moderately good at interviewing (good enough to pass your nonsense, but not the nonsense of the people who pay more). And you should expect them to hop without loyalty, because you do FAANG arrogance and nonsense, without paying for the privilege.
bdangubic 10mo ago
I don’t think SWEs realize just how many companies out there will look at a resume of a job hopper (even if there is 10 years at FAANG, say 2 at each) and outright reject the candidate on those grounds.
- fn-mote 10mo ago
  You’re hiring a job hopper because they have skills you need NOW. They are job hopping because they want high level compensation and maybe a position on an high-impact team, instead of being sidelined and powerless against the disrespect of their manager. Your company can make those work together. I’m not saying every job hopper is the right hire. I am offering a reason they get hired anyway (availability!) and leave anyway (respect and $$).
  - bdangubic 10mo ago
    “they have skills you have NOW” is exactly like saying “she/he cute NOW I need to get married” :) Needing something now is a recipe for disaster and I am happy I never needed (nor will need) anyone now
- bongodongobob 10mo ago
  Absolutely. I had a stretch of consulting gigs for a couple years and I recently was denied an interview because they "didn't like the short periods of employment" even though they were specifically indicated as short term contract jobs!
  - RealityVoid 10mo ago
    I understand ever having done consulting is seen as a red flag now, so that might be more to blame.
    - neilv 10mo ago
      A recruiter gave me the terse feedback about "too long consulting" from one company. (And it didn't fit any rational objection I could think of, if they'd actually looked at the resume, beyond triggering on a keyword.) I think a root problem is that many companies are bad at hiring, and many of those get confidently bad at it. In institutional emergent behavior terms, as well as individual actor terms.
ghaff 10mo ago
There's probably some happy-ish medium of people toughing it out through a bad situation they don't feel they can change--and jumping at the first instance of itchy feet (which is admittedly harder at the moment). Not sure when the job-hopping culture--especially on the west coast--really came in. I do associate it with post-dot com but I'd really have to look at the data. Certainly wasn't really true pre dot-com at large tech employers.
neofrommatrix 10mo ago
Honestly, if companies cared enough about the interviewees time as well, people wouldn’t do this. I was looking for a few months, and companies put you through the wringer of 6-9 interviews these days. Two should tell you whether a candidate is a good fit or not. Then there’s the case interviews where candidates put in dozens of hours prepping decks and what not, and then get rejected without any feedback at all. And this was exclusively at SMBs and startups. At least, the FAANG companies have structure and you know what to expect.