5 ms·

Maybe the subsidized transit is normal in europe, and universal childcare in some parts of europe (definetly not all of western europe), but this article is str

by abe94 10mo ago

Maybe the subsidized transit is normal in europe, and universal childcare in some parts of europe (definetly not all of western europe), but this article is stretching when claiming state run grocery stores are normal. Its also conveniently leaving out the policy ideas on reducing policing, and introducing mental health crisis workers which have been tried in the US (SF) and worked disastrously.

seba_dos1 10mo ago
"State run grocery stores" perhaps aren't, but consumers' co-operatives and subsidized milk bars certainly are.
- gruez 10mo ago
  >"State run grocery stores" perhaps aren't, but consumers' co-operatives [...] are That's a pretty important difference you're eliding. "state run" is where most of the objection is. Coops get nowhere near the pushback (if any) that state run businesses (ie. "communism") get from Americans.
  - seba_dos1 10mo ago
    We've got plenty of state run businesses though, that's certainly normal as well. Just not grocery stores in particular, or at least I'm not aware of any around.
  - tpm 10mo ago
    "state run" is also probably incorrect. AFAIK Mamdani will be the mayor of New York City, which is a city, not a state. Cities in Europe tend to run businesess outside of their core competency quite often. Is that not the case in the US?
    - gruez 10mo ago
      >"state run" is also probably incorrect. AFAIK Mamdani will be the mayor of New York City, which is a city, not a state. "state" in this case refers to "government", not US "states". You see this type of usage elsewhere, for instance "state" schools[1], which are often operated at the city/county level, not state level. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_school https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_school
      - tpm 10mo ago
        > You see this type of usage elsewhere, for instance "state" schools[1] Schools operated at the city/county level are called public schools in the US, no? So in the same vein these stores should either be called public or city stores. Note that the Guardian article instead talks about "city-run" and "municipal-run" grocery stores. And the reason I'm mentioning this is that "city-run" sounds harmless while "state run" is exactly what you mention: "Coops get nowhere near the pushback (if any) that state run businesses (ie. "communism") get from Americans."
        gruez 10mo ago
        >Schools operated at the city/county level are called public schools in the US, no? Right, I'm pointing out that "state" in the english language isn't limited to just US states. If you're not convinced by that, there's also "state" owned enterprises in countries that don't even have "states" (eg. China). >Note that the Guardian article instead talks about "city-run" and "municipal-run" grocery stores. And the reason I'm mentioning this is that "city-run" sounds harmless while "state run" is exactly what you mention: "Coops get nowhere near the pushback (if any) that state run businesses (ie. "communism") get from Americans." The only difference between municipally and states owned enterprises (both the US state kind and "government" kind) is in scale. Objections to state ownership mainly revolve around state coercion (you can't opt out of a municipal grocery store, especially if it's funded by tax dollars), and potential for self-dealing. Both these concerns exist for municipal grocery stores, but not coops.
        tpm 10mo ago
        I actually did live in "communism" with only state-run enterprises and let me assure you that scale is very far from the only difference. > in countries that don't even have "states" (eg. China) China is the state. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_(polity) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_(polity)
tkel 10mo ago
17 states have government owned stores, it's common across the US. They sell liquor and in some states they also sell groceries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholic_beverage_control_state https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholic_beverage_control_sta... On policing, Urban Alchemy is the company that was contracted in SF. Having worked directly with Urban Alchemy for years in LA, their staff are severly underqualified and 95% of the time will do nothing once arriving on site. The most I've ever seen them do is break up a fight. Is doing nothing better than actively harming people and making the situation worse, as the police often do? Yes. Is it improving the situation? No. Also, what is your definition of success? No first responder can prevent a crime from happening, all responders arrive after crime has occurred. Putting people into cages as the only option actually leads to worse outcomes for crime. And after decades and billions of dollars spent on the failed war on drugs, we know that is not a viable or successful approach. Part of the job these alternatives are supposed to be doing, is addressing root upstream causes of crime. On the other hand, the alternative to policing pilot in Denver, Support Team Assistance Response (STAR), has been a wild success.
- wutbrodo 10mo ago
  > No first responder can prevent a crime from happening, all responders arrive after crime has occurred I've never understood this claim. Are you unaware of the concept of deterrence, or do you reject that it exists?
  - Izkata 10mo ago
    "Beat cops" barely seem to be a thing anymore, so I'd guess anyone under 30 might think it's only in movies and TV, if even that.
    - abe94 10mo ago
      Which is an issue. Mamdani and politicians with similar 'progressive' positions are those advocating for reducing them (either through budget cuts, or moving resources to worse initiatives), while the most robust studies on crime have shown beat cops to be pretty effective for reducing crime (see the Philadelphia Foot Patrol Experiment, and other meta analyses)
mmooss 10mo ago
> introducing mental health crisis workers which have been tried in the US (SF) and worked disastrously. I've read it has worked very well, though not necessarily in SF in particular. Do you happen to remember where you read that? It's hard to imagine why having mental health professionals address mental health problems would be a bad idea.
- abe94 10mo ago
  Here's an account from the NYC government itself on how it hasn't worked well - https://comptroller.nyc.gov/reports/audit-of-the-behavioral-health-emergency-assistance-response-divisions-effectiveness-in-responding-to-individuals-with-mental-health-crises-and-meeting-its-goals/?utm_source=chatgpt.com https://comptroller.nyc.gov/reports/audit-of-the-behavioral-...
  - mmooss 10mo ago
    That document doesn't support your claim at all, that I see; it talks about limited deployment and management analytics. Could you point out if I'm missing something?
    - abe94 10mo ago
      You can pick and choose what you see from the audit (though in no circumstances is it an astounding success). The general points i'm trying to get across is - Responder safety/back-up needs mean you can’t fully “swap out” police. This program still needed to bring in police most of the time. - Coverage and scale are hard in an actually big city, like NYC. (also why denver's success in a tiny city is sort of a useless comparison) So why not just equip police to better handle mental health cases instead of creating a different task force which doesn't have any of structure the police already has? This isn't rhetorical - the reason is idealogical stubbornness, there are better solutions for achieving mamadanis goals.
      - mmooss 10mo ago
        > You can pick and choose what you see from the audit I don't think so: Pick something that supports your claim. Right now it looks like you linked to it without even knowing what it said, hoping nobody would read it and you could claim some authority. > Responder safety/back-up needs mean you can’t fully “swap out” police. This program still needed to bring in police most of the time. The audit specifically says that they can't evaluate that; they don't know because they lack the appropriate data. Is there something else you base that claim on? > why not just equip police to better handle mental health cases Because it takes a lot of training that police don't have time or possibly the propensity for. Even police have long complained that they are given jobs that they aren't suited for. > the reason is idealogical stubbornness You answered your own question with that ... there is nothing more I can add!
rsynnott 10mo ago
Per the article, they exist elsewhere, including elsewhere in the US. Most European cities don't typically really suffer from the problem that New York apparently has (where groceries in New York are apparently significantly more expensive than outside, and significant areas don't have proper supermarkets at all). If they did, in many countries there would absolutely be some sort of intervention.
- rsynnott 10mo ago
  Sidenote: Has there been serious research into _why_ these 'food deserts' happen (or at least their urban form; the rural version seems more explicable), and/or why they seem to happen in the US more than in other developed countries, does anyone know? On the face of it, even as a fairly market-sceptical person, this is one that I would kind of expect the invisible hand to deal with.
  - captn3m0 10mo ago
    https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/634-food-deserts/ https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/634-food-deserts/ 99pi has a nice podcast on food deserts. It puts the blame on the decision from the FTC to stop enforcing the Robinson-Patman Act, and only use consumer prices as the metric for antitrust rulings.
  - Izkata 10mo ago
    > On the face of it, even as a fairly market-sceptical person, this is one that I would kind of expect the invisible hand to deal with. This is more one of the causes: Too much theft so they cut their losses.
port11 10mo ago
State-run liquor stores are quite normal in Norway. So at least there's that, it depends on your definition of groceries. I've just walked home with the kid and people are drinking beer at 11AM, which is… liquid cereal.

by abe94 10mo ago

seba_dos1 10mo ago

"State run grocery stores" perhaps aren't, but consumers' co-operatives and subsidized milk bars certainly are.

gruez 10mo ago
>"State run grocery stores" perhaps aren't, but consumers' co-operatives [...] are That's a pretty important difference you're eliding. "state run" is where most of the objection is. Coops get nowhere near the pushback (if any) that state run businesses (ie. "communism") get from Americans.
- seba_dos1 10mo ago
  We've got plenty of state run businesses though, that's certainly normal as well. Just not grocery stores in particular, or at least I'm not aware of any around.
- tpm 10mo ago
  "state run" is also probably incorrect. AFAIK Mamdani will be the mayor of New York City, which is a city, not a state. Cities in Europe tend to run businesess outside of their core competency quite often. Is that not the case in the US?
  - gruez 10mo ago
    >"state run" is also probably incorrect. AFAIK Mamdani will be the mayor of New York City, which is a city, not a state. "state" in this case refers to "government", not US "states". You see this type of usage elsewhere, for instance "state" schools[1], which are often operated at the city/county level, not state level. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_school https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_school
    - tpm 10mo ago
      > You see this type of usage elsewhere, for instance "state" schools[1] Schools operated at the city/county level are called public schools in the US, no? So in the same vein these stores should either be called public or city stores. Note that the Guardian article instead talks about "city-run" and "municipal-run" grocery stores. And the reason I'm mentioning this is that "city-run" sounds harmless while "state run" is exactly what you mention: "Coops get nowhere near the pushback (if any) that state run businesses (ie. "communism") get from Americans."
      - gruez 10mo ago
        >Schools operated at the city/county level are called public schools in the US, no? Right, I'm pointing out that "state" in the english language isn't limited to just US states. If you're not convinced by that, there's also "state" owned enterprises in countries that don't even have "states" (eg. China). >Note that the Guardian article instead talks about "city-run" and "municipal-run" grocery stores. And the reason I'm mentioning this is that "city-run" sounds harmless while "state run" is exactly what you mention: "Coops get nowhere near the pushback (if any) that state run businesses (ie. "communism") get from Americans." The only difference between municipally and states owned enterprises (both the US state kind and "government" kind) is in scale. Objections to state ownership mainly revolve around state coercion (you can't opt out of a municipal grocery store, especially if it's funded by tax dollars), and potential for self-dealing. Both these concerns exist for municipal grocery stores, but not coops.
        tpm 10mo ago
        I actually did live in "communism" with only state-run enterprises and let me assure you that scale is very far from the only difference. > in countries that don't even have "states" (eg. China) China is the state. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_(polity) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_(polity)

tkel 10mo ago

17 states have government owned stores, it's common across the US. They sell liquor and in some states they also sell groceries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholic_beverage_control_state https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholic_beverage_control_sta... On policing, Urban Alchemy is the company that was contracted in SF. Having worked directly with Urban Alchemy for years in LA, their staff are severly underqualified and 95% of the time will do nothing once arriving on site. The most I've ever seen them do is break up a fight. Is doing nothing better than actively harming people and making the situation worse, as the police often do? Yes. Is it improving the situation? No. Also, what is your definition of success? No first responder can prevent a crime from happening, all responders arrive after crime has occurred. Putting people into cages as the only option actually leads to worse outcomes for crime. And after decades and billions of dollars spent on the failed war on drugs, we know that is not a viable or successful approach. Part of the job these alternatives are supposed to be doing, is addressing root upstream causes of crime. On the other hand, the alternative to policing pilot in Denver, Support Team Assistance Response (STAR), has been a wild success.

wutbrodo 10mo ago
> No first responder can prevent a crime from happening, all responders arrive after crime has occurred I've never understood this claim. Are you unaware of the concept of deterrence, or do you reject that it exists?
- Izkata 10mo ago
  "Beat cops" barely seem to be a thing anymore, so I'd guess anyone under 30 might think it's only in movies and TV, if even that.
  - abe94 10mo ago
    Which is an issue. Mamdani and politicians with similar 'progressive' positions are those advocating for reducing them (either through budget cuts, or moving resources to worse initiatives), while the most robust studies on crime have shown beat cops to be pretty effective for reducing crime (see the Philadelphia Foot Patrol Experiment, and other meta analyses)

mmooss 10mo ago

> introducing mental health crisis workers which have been tried in the US (SF) and worked disastrously. I've read it has worked very well, though not necessarily in SF in particular. Do you happen to remember where you read that? It's hard to imagine why having mental health professionals address mental health problems would be a bad idea.

abe94 10mo ago
Here's an account from the NYC government itself on how it hasn't worked well - https://comptroller.nyc.gov/reports/audit-of-the-behavioral-health-emergency-assistance-response-divisions-effectiveness-in-responding-to-individuals-with-mental-health-crises-and-meeting-its-goals/?utm_source=chatgpt.com https://comptroller.nyc.gov/reports/audit-of-the-behavioral-...
- mmooss 10mo ago
  That document doesn't support your claim at all, that I see; it talks about limited deployment and management analytics. Could you point out if I'm missing something?
  - abe94 10mo ago
    You can pick and choose what you see from the audit (though in no circumstances is it an astounding success). The general points i'm trying to get across is - Responder safety/back-up needs mean you can’t fully “swap out” police. This program still needed to bring in police most of the time. - Coverage and scale are hard in an actually big city, like NYC. (also why denver's success in a tiny city is sort of a useless comparison) So why not just equip police to better handle mental health cases instead of creating a different task force which doesn't have any of structure the police already has? This isn't rhetorical - the reason is idealogical stubbornness, there are better solutions for achieving mamadanis goals.
    - mmooss 10mo ago
      > You can pick and choose what you see from the audit I don't think so: Pick something that supports your claim. Right now it looks like you linked to it without even knowing what it said, hoping nobody would read it and you could claim some authority. > Responder safety/back-up needs mean you can’t fully “swap out” police. This program still needed to bring in police most of the time. The audit specifically says that they can't evaluate that; they don't know because they lack the appropriate data. Is there something else you base that claim on? > why not just equip police to better handle mental health cases Because it takes a lot of training that police don't have time or possibly the propensity for. Even police have long complained that they are given jobs that they aren't suited for. > the reason is idealogical stubbornness You answered your own question with that ... there is nothing more I can add!

rsynnott 10mo ago

Per the article, they exist elsewhere, including elsewhere in the US. Most European cities don't typically really suffer from the problem that New York apparently has (where groceries in New York are apparently significantly more expensive than outside, and significant areas don't have proper supermarkets at all). If they did, in many countries there would absolutely be some sort of intervention.

rsynnott 10mo ago
Sidenote: Has there been serious research into _why_ these 'food deserts' happen (or at least their urban form; the rural version seems more explicable), and/or why they seem to happen in the US more than in other developed countries, does anyone know? On the face of it, even as a fairly market-sceptical person, this is one that I would kind of expect the invisible hand to deal with.
- captn3m0 10mo ago
  https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/634-food-deserts/ https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/634-food-deserts/ 99pi has a nice podcast on food deserts. It puts the blame on the decision from the FTC to stop enforcing the Robinson-Patman Act, and only use consumer prices as the metric for antitrust rulings.
- Izkata 10mo ago
  > On the face of it, even as a fairly market-sceptical person, this is one that I would kind of expect the invisible hand to deal with. This is more one of the causes: Too much theft so they cut their losses.

port11 10mo ago

State-run liquor stores are quite normal in Norway. So at least there's that, it depends on your definition of groceries. I've just walked home with the kid and people are drinking beer at 11AM, which is… liquid cereal.