17 ms·

I have never heard of Matter before, but I was super satisfied with Ikea's zigbee products. Does anyone know why they switched?

by 63stack 11mo ago

whitehexagon 11mo ago
some background: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44507971 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44507971
frenchtoast8 11mo ago
It’s less of a switch and more of an upgrade. The hub will continue to work with Zigbee devices, it just adds Matter support to those devices you already have.
- wlesieutre 11mo ago
  Might be an upgrade if you're using devices through Ikea's hub, but if you've been buying Ikea's zigbee devices for use with some other zigbee network it's a bummer that you won't be able to get them anymore. Even if you're all in Ikea's ecosystem it will still mean whatever new devices you add from now on are a separate mesh network and can't use the existing zigbee products as repeaters. If the next thing you want to add is at the far end of your house from the hub, it won't have reception there with Matter until you put other new devices in between.
pta2002 11mo ago
It’s a newer standard backed by multiple vendors (importantly, Apple, Google and Amazon, who make the devices that you ultimately want to use to control these things). Zigbee is great for communication instead of WiFi, but it’s just one part of the equation - it says nothing about the specific commands a device will respond to. You couldn’t pair a Philips remote with an IKEA lightbulb. Matter attempts to fix it by actually defining the protocol that these devices use. It’s also fully local and open source, which is great. The actual transport layer can be WiFi, but it can also be Thread, which is a newer standard based off Zigbee, and AFAIK some Zigbee controllers can be reprogrammed to support it. They don’t specify what transport layer they are using here, but considering the kind of devices they are showing (battery-powered remotes) it’s almost definitely Thread.
- noir_lord 11mo ago
  Matter is definitely a step in the right direction, SDK is under Apache and the actual spec is freely available[1] Might give it a year or three and if they continue on that path I might have to reasses my "No smart devices in the house" "rule". [1] https://csa-iot.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/22-27349-001_Matter-1.0-Core-Specification.pdf https://csa-iot.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/22-27349-001_...
  - PaulHoule 11mo ago
    They've been talking about it for years and now they finally have a product?
- milliams 11mo ago
  https://www.theverge.com/tech/814928/ikea-matter-thread-dirigera-smart-home-interview https://www.theverge.com/tech/814928/ikea-matter-thread-diri... has some quotes from IKEA saying that they're using Thread. It's strange they didn't say in this release though.
  - pta2002 11mo ago
    I guess because to most consumers, it doesn't actually matter. It uses matter and connects to a matter hub, the way it does it is an implementation detail unless you're making your own hub with homeassistant or something. Even iPhones have been able to talk to thread devices directly for a while now, so it's a fairly transparent process.
- teamonkey 11mo ago
  The way I understand it (please correct me) is that: * The old Ikea Zigbee products will remain Zigbee. They will still require a Zigbee coordinator. * The new products will be Matter-over-Thread. They require a Thread coordinator (or whatever the Thread equivalent is called). * The existing Ikea hub has had a firmware upgrade that allows it to be simultaneously a Zigbee and Thread coordinator. * The Ikea hub adds a Matter compatibility layer to the devices that don't natively support Matter.
close04 11mo ago
Zigbee is the wireless network protocol. The equivalent to it on the Matter side is called Thread, also based on Zigbee from what I read (was developed by Connectivity Standards Alliance, formerly known as Zigbee Alliance). Zigbee and Thread operate at OSI L1-3, Matter is L3/4-7. Matter is a communication protocol adopted by a lot of manufacturers but I think practically for the buyer the real benefit is that you no longer need a bucket of hubs for each of the device ecosystems one might use. It's more future proof so it makes sense IKEA would add support for it in their hardware including existing hubs I believe.
- darkwater 11mo ago
  You never needed a bucket of hubs with things like zigbee2mqtt or the Zigbee implementation in Home Assistant. That's enough a proof that the issue was not in the protocol. Actualyl you can also pair between them different vendors products (i.e. Ikea remote with Philips bulbs)
  - pta2002 11mo ago
    While you could do that, the hub needed to implement the logic to actually convert the different "APIs" that the products spoke. E.g. imagine an IKEA remote sends "button_on" to turn on the light, but the Philips remotes send "light_on" or something. Philips lights will work with their remotes but not with IKEA remotes, since they wouldn't know what to do with "button_on". Zigbee2mqtt and ZHA are great projects that implement a compatibility layer to all of this, but they do have to explicitly support every device (and they support basically _every_ device there is, thanks to a ton of community work, they're genuinely great projects and something that wouldn't really be possible without open source). You mention that you can pair between different vendor's products, but that's not quite the case - you can pair different vendor's products to the hub, and the hub can translate between them. But while you can pair an IKEA remote to an IKEA bulb without a hub, you can't really do that between different brands. Matter simplifies this. It defines the API layer. You can use Thread without Matter, at which point you basically have Zigbee + IPv6, but the power comes with Matter since now every device is speaking the same language and can actually understand each other.
WaitWaitWha 11mo ago
Vendor lock in. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45658056 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45658056 edit: Feel free to down but the evidence is in the products. Zigbee will work with any other Zigbee device if it is properly implemented. not so with Thread.
- deleted 11mo ago
  [deleted]
- RealStickman_ 11mo ago
  Please enlighten me how the ip-network-using mattress in any way relates to a Matter and Thread network
  - WaitWaitWha 11mo ago
    >I can only speak to my experience, certified devices by the largest firms will mostly not interoperate (fails around authN). >Apple: Keeps Thread credentials locked to HomeKit's border routers. >Google: Shares some credentials, but only within Google Account environment. >Amazon: TBD, but their Matter implementation is mostly cloud-tied. >Samsung: Hybrid approach; still best when used inside SmartThings, their 1.4 update seems to support for joining existing Thread networks. Still have to test it. >So, even though Thread theoretically allows full interoperability, no vendor wants to be reduced to a dumb router in someone else’s ecosystem. >there is no easy way to bridge Apple Thread to Home Assistant or Google Thread, even though it is theoretically supposed to be possible from a protocol standpoint. >If you have such solutions, let me know, because I would take full advantage of it, and will regale your contributions in multiple home automation threads.
torginus 11mo ago
It's an application layer standard that describes how devices should present themselves and present information and accept control signals in a standard way. It can run over Wifi or Thread which provides the physical interface and networking support. In contrast Zigbee defines both the application layer and the networking.

I have never heard of Matter before, but I was super satisfied with Ikea's zigbee products. Does anyone know why they switched?

by 63stack 11mo ago

I have never heard of Matter before, but I was super satisfied with Ikea's zigbee products. Does anyone know why they switched?

whitehexagon 11mo ago

some background: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44507971 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44507971

frenchtoast8 11mo ago

It’s less of a switch and more of an upgrade. The hub will continue to work with Zigbee devices, it just adds Matter support to those devices you already have.

wlesieutre 11mo ago
Might be an upgrade if you're using devices through Ikea's hub, but if you've been buying Ikea's zigbee devices for use with some other zigbee network it's a bummer that you won't be able to get them anymore. Even if you're all in Ikea's ecosystem it will still mean whatever new devices you add from now on are a separate mesh network and can't use the existing zigbee products as repeaters. If the next thing you want to add is at the far end of your house from the hub, it won't have reception there with Matter until you put other new devices in between.

pta2002 11mo ago

It’s a newer standard backed by multiple vendors (importantly, Apple, Google and Amazon, who make the devices that you ultimately want to use to control these things). Zigbee is great for communication instead of WiFi, but it’s just one part of the equation - it says nothing about the specific commands a device will respond to. You couldn’t pair a Philips remote with an IKEA lightbulb. Matter attempts to fix it by actually defining the protocol that these devices use. It’s also fully local and open source, which is great. The actual transport layer can be WiFi, but it can also be Thread, which is a newer standard based off Zigbee, and AFAIK some Zigbee controllers can be reprogrammed to support it. They don’t specify what transport layer they are using here, but considering the kind of devices they are showing (battery-powered remotes) it’s almost definitely Thread.

noir_lord 11mo ago
Matter is definitely a step in the right direction, SDK is under Apache and the actual spec is freely available[1] Might give it a year or three and if they continue on that path I might have to reasses my "No smart devices in the house" "rule". [1] https://csa-iot.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/22-27349-001_Matter-1.0-Core-Specification.pdf https://csa-iot.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/22-27349-001_...
- PaulHoule 11mo ago
  They've been talking about it for years and now they finally have a product?
milliams 11mo ago
https://www.theverge.com/tech/814928/ikea-matter-thread-dirigera-smart-home-interview https://www.theverge.com/tech/814928/ikea-matter-thread-diri... has some quotes from IKEA saying that they're using Thread. It's strange they didn't say in this release though.
- pta2002 11mo ago
  I guess because to most consumers, it doesn't actually matter. It uses matter and connects to a matter hub, the way it does it is an implementation detail unless you're making your own hub with homeassistant or something. Even iPhones have been able to talk to thread devices directly for a while now, so it's a fairly transparent process.
teamonkey 11mo ago
The way I understand it (please correct me) is that: * The old Ikea Zigbee products will remain Zigbee. They will still require a Zigbee coordinator. * The new products will be Matter-over-Thread. They require a Thread coordinator (or whatever the Thread equivalent is called). * The existing Ikea hub has had a firmware upgrade that allows it to be simultaneously a Zigbee and Thread coordinator. * The Ikea hub adds a Matter compatibility layer to the devices that don't natively support Matter.

close04 11mo ago

Zigbee is the wireless network protocol. The equivalent to it on the Matter side is called Thread, also based on Zigbee from what I read (was developed by Connectivity Standards Alliance, formerly known as Zigbee Alliance). Zigbee and Thread operate at OSI L1-3, Matter is L3/4-7. Matter is a communication protocol adopted by a lot of manufacturers but I think practically for the buyer the real benefit is that you no longer need a bucket of hubs for each of the device ecosystems one might use. It's more future proof so it makes sense IKEA would add support for it in their hardware including existing hubs I believe.

darkwater 11mo ago
You never needed a bucket of hubs with things like zigbee2mqtt or the Zigbee implementation in Home Assistant. That's enough a proof that the issue was not in the protocol. Actualyl you can also pair between them different vendors products (i.e. Ikea remote with Philips bulbs)
- pta2002 11mo ago
  While you could do that, the hub needed to implement the logic to actually convert the different "APIs" that the products spoke. E.g. imagine an IKEA remote sends "button_on" to turn on the light, but the Philips remotes send "light_on" or something. Philips lights will work with their remotes but not with IKEA remotes, since they wouldn't know what to do with "button_on". Zigbee2mqtt and ZHA are great projects that implement a compatibility layer to all of this, but they do have to explicitly support every device (and they support basically _every_ device there is, thanks to a ton of community work, they're genuinely great projects and something that wouldn't really be possible without open source). You mention that you can pair between different vendor's products, but that's not quite the case - you can pair different vendor's products to the hub, and the hub can translate between them. But while you can pair an IKEA remote to an IKEA bulb without a hub, you can't really do that between different brands. Matter simplifies this. It defines the API layer. You can use Thread without Matter, at which point you basically have Zigbee + IPv6, but the power comes with Matter since now every device is speaking the same language and can actually understand each other.

WaitWaitWha 11mo ago

Vendor lock in. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45658056 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45658056 edit: Feel free to down but the evidence is in the products. Zigbee will work with any other Zigbee device if it is properly implemented. not so with Thread.

deleted 11mo ago
[deleted]
RealStickman_ 11mo ago
Please enlighten me how the ip-network-using mattress in any way relates to a Matter and Thread network
- WaitWaitWha 11mo ago
  >I can only speak to my experience, certified devices by the largest firms will mostly not interoperate (fails around authN). >Apple: Keeps Thread credentials locked to HomeKit's border routers. >Google: Shares some credentials, but only within Google Account environment. >Amazon: TBD, but their Matter implementation is mostly cloud-tied. >Samsung: Hybrid approach; still best when used inside SmartThings, their 1.4 update seems to support for joining existing Thread networks. Still have to test it. >So, even though Thread theoretically allows full interoperability, no vendor wants to be reduced to a dumb router in someone else’s ecosystem. >there is no easy way to bridge Apple Thread to Home Assistant or Google Thread, even though it is theoretically supposed to be possible from a protocol standpoint. >If you have such solutions, let me know, because I would take full advantage of it, and will regale your contributions in multiple home automation threads.

torginus 11mo ago

It's an application layer standard that describes how devices should present themselves and present information and accept control signals in a standard way. It can run over Wifi or Thread which provides the physical interface and networking support. In contrast Zigbee defines both the application layer and the networking.