5 ms·

Two thoughts come to mind: - the rats are effectively as blind as the bat in the dark, are they relying purely on sound and air currents to gauge their attack?

by nortlov 11mo ago

Two thoughts come to mind: - the rats are effectively as blind as the bat in the dark, are they relying purely on sound and air currents to gauge their attack? - and what a fantastic new path for pathogen transmission.

embedding-shape 11mo ago
> the rats are effectively as blind as the bat in the dark Are they? Aren't rats nocturnal in the first place, meaning evolution should have given them some benefit in that environment? AFAIK, rats have pretty OK contrast/motion detection even in low light situations. I guess if "in the dark" means "low light" or "total darkness". You're probably right for "total darkness" but if it's "low light", I think the rats would "see" better than the bats.
- nortlov 11mo ago
  You might be right. The paper mentioned the rats preferred hunting near the light barrier but also mentioned they probably climbed the fabric for an aerial advantage (they didn’t seem to prefer hunting near the light barrier once the fabric was removed).
  - neom 11mo ago
    That's right, rats eyes are mostly rod based, they are very optimized for contrast shifts in extremely low light. They're also mostly colour blind.
vasco 11mo ago
> and what a fantastic new path for pathogen transmission Presumably it's been there for a long time and we just noticed.
- chairmansteve 11mo ago
  >Presumably it's been there for a long time and we just noticed. As a previous commenter noted, rats are an invasive species in the expanding human/wildland interface. So they will be encountering novel bat viruses. There may be other existing bat to human transmission paths, but maybe not....
- spankibalt 11mo ago
  > "Presumably it's been there for a long time and we just noticed." We just noticed bat snatching. I doubt it's new discovery that rats also eat bats whenever the opportunity comes knocking. Also: Bats -> rats -> (house) cats -> humans.
neom 11mo ago
I don't see how a new path for pathogen transmission is available?
- mikeyouse 11mo ago
  Not necessarily a new path, but a previously unknown path. Any place that bats directly interact with ‘land mammals’ leads to a mess of viral recombination and reassortment… hence why the agriculture/wild interface in China is the site of so many spillovers. Rats especially carry similar viruses with many features that increase tropism, so the fact that rats are feeding on bats means we’re going to get a ton of crossover viruses especially well suited for transmission in mammals. One such study’s key paragraph… > While uncommon for coronaviruses of bats, furin cleavage sites are commonly found in coronaviruses of rodents and it is perhaps fitting to note that proteolytic processing of the coronavirus spike protein was first recognized in the model rodent coronavirus, murine hepatitis virus, MHV-A59 [53], with later analyses demonstrating the importance of furin for the proteolytic cleavage and function of its spike protein [54]. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352771421000720 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S235277142...
  - neom 11mo ago
    I don't think that is possible in practice? Rats and Bats diverged some 60 million years ago, they're far too host specific for anything new, and they have the same coevolution as bats to paramyxo and coronaviruses, I would presume that makes them immunologically resistant and ecologically poor hosts for any strains. Edit, in fact the paper you link says exactly what I said I think? Rodent coronaviruses already evolved to use furin long ago. I think this paper just makes it even less likely tbh.
    - firstplacelast 11mo ago
      Might be wrong about this, but being so far removed and seemingly immunologically resistant is exactly what makes it a dangerous combination. Viruses mutate and recombine at an astonishing rate, so 99.9999% (?) of viral entities won't be able to make the jump between these species, but the one that can might have devastating consequences as it will be wildly different from anything that has infected rats before (and from there it's more likely to infect other mammal populations). The more exposure between these populations the higher the likelihood that a crossover event occurs.
TacticalCoder 11mo ago
> - and what a fantastic new path for pathogen transmission. on the bright side and if history is of any help, as long as future-to-be-debarred "experts" aren't doing gain-of-function research on bat viruses while lying about it, we don't have much to fear. Official US Congress report, mandated under Biden and whose results came under Biden, says the virus has "characteristic not found in nature" and that a lab-leak is the most likely source: https://oversight.house.gov/release/final-report-covid-select-concludes-2-year-investigation-issues-500-page-final-report-on-lessons-learned-and-the-path-forward/ https://oversight.house.gov/release/final-report-covid-selec... And Peter Daszak has been debarred, defunded and prevented from ever receiving funding from the US again. I'm more worried about humans lying and humans siding with lying humans to then lie some more, worldwide, to the public --for years before the truth finally came up to light-- much more than I'm about rats attacking bats.
- chairmansteve 11mo ago
  >on the bright side I wouldn't be so confident. HIV and Ebola came from the wild. Bird Flu also has the potential to be really bad.
- rootusrootus 11mo ago
  > mandated under Biden and whose results came under Biden You missed the part where the original mandate was along party lines with Democrats supporting it and Republicans not, to investigate how the Trump administration handled the pandemic response. Republicans took control of the House and then redefined the agenda to be their own partisan viewpoint, to confirm what they already believed about gain-of-function and lab leak theories. They produced a nice Big Beautiful Report with a debatable connection to facts, which is not surprising in the least. > before the truth finally came up to light If you are looking to politicians for the truth...
lurquer 11mo ago
What’s so ‘new’ about it?
aqme28 11mo ago
This is the funny thing about echolocation in the dark-- it gives the bat's position away to the rat as well.
dgroshev 11mo ago
> The behavior is all the more impressive given that the rodents hunt at night, when they are effectively blind; the rats may rely on their whiskers to detect changes in air currents caused by the bats’ flapping wings.

neom 11mo ago
high mutation rate != high crossover rate, and immunological resistance != susceptibility to novel evolution. (it's actually the other way around) Also to be super clear, I'm not saying rats are immune to bat viruses, I'm just saying in reality it's is too divergent for functional crossspecies transmission and both rats and bats already have their own established, evolved coronavirus ecosystems that solve the same problems (like furin cleavage above). It seems to me near impossible it could actually happen.
- mikeyouse 11mo ago
  It’s incredibly common for bats and rats to be coinfected with the same viruses… this is literally why we were looking at pangolins and raccoon dogs and mink for SC2 and at masked palm civets and ferrets for SC1. The term of art here is “intermediate host”. The virus doesn’t need to make the animal sick to increase its human transmission risk, it just needs to infect its cells and be in the same host as other circulating viruses to get the crossover and recombination events. From early host analysis, > For a precursor virus to acquire the genomic features suitable for human ACE2 receptor binding, an animal host would likely have to have a high population density to allow natural selection to proceed efficiently (27). It is interesting to note that rodent betacoronaviruses have the polybasic cleavage site (38). Considering the above, surveillance and whole genomic analysis of CoVs from rodents are important to elucidate whether these species have any role in the transmission cycle of the virus and to detect the emergence of possible recombinants involving CoVs from these species and those from bats. However, there is not yet any evidence on the role of rodents or squirrels as intermediate hosts. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7297130/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7297130/ Or more direct examination of the FCS issue between rats and bats: > Here, we examine the spike protein across coronaviruses identified in both bat and rodent species and address the role of furin as an activating protease. Utilizing two publicly available furin prediction algorithms (ProP and PiTou) and based on spike sequences reported in GenBank, we show that the S1/S2 furin cleavage site is typically not present in bat virus spike proteins but is common in rodent-associated sequences, and suggest this may have implications for zoonotic transfer. We provide a phylogenetic history of the Embecoviruses (betacoronavirus lineage 2a), including context for the use of furin as an activating protease for the viral spike protein. From a One Health perspective, continued rodent surveillance should be an important consideration in uncovering novel circulating coronaviruses. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352771421000720 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S235277142...
  - neom 11mo ago
    Too much conflation going on at this point, feels like we’re getting to the point of talking past each other. My understanding is: crossspecies jumps need cellular compatibility, not just proximity. Resistance makes a host a dead end, not a mixing vessel. “Intermediate host” means one the virus can actually replicate in, not just be near. And parallel evolution isn’t the same thing as recombination.
    - mikeyouse 11mo ago
      I guess we are getting past each other. Not all viruses have the crosspieces compatibility, but many coronaviruses do. Rodents are extremely common intermediate hosts for bat viruses that later infect other animals. It’s a speculated source of a pig outbreak in China; A possible scenario for such transmission may include bats infected with HKU2-like CoVs preying on insects near pig facilities, dropping contaminated feces that were later introduced into the pens somehow, by pig feed or some kind of animal (Fig. 4). According to our onsite observation in 2017, rodents were frequently visible in these pig farms. Notably, bat HKU2-like CoVs are clustered with rat CoVs in the genus Alphacoronavirus (Fig. 3). As we found that SeACoV infects different cell lines originating from rodents, and mice may be susceptible to SeACoV experimental infection (Yang et al., 2019b), we hypothesize that in such field conditions, rodents (especially wild rats) in the farms may eat pig feed contaminated by bat feces, becoming carriers of SeACoV (Fig. 4). Alternatively, if pigs became infected and shed SeACoV-positive feces, the virus could begin circulating in pig facilities. Contamination of pig feed, pig feces and water supplies by rodents could accumulate and develop into outbreaks of diarrhea in neonatal piglets (Fig. 4). Future studies on identifying HKU2-like CoV positive samples in rodents near pig farms are warranted to test this hypothesis. Many rat coronaviruses are closer evolutionarily to specific bat coronaviruses than other closely related bat coronaviruses; https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S016817021930677X-gr3.jpg https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S01681702193067...

chairmansteve 11mo ago

Last week I saw a couple of small hawks attacking a bat swarm as they came out of their cave at sunset. Less of a transmission vector probably, but there seems to be a lot more interaction between bats and other animals than I thought. I wonder if domestic cats attack bats.