6 ms·

Digging deeper there are mechanisms for long time on internal X side (see https://www.x.org/releases/X11R7.6/doc/xorg-docs/specs/Xserver/XACE-Spec.html https:/

by mrktf 11mo ago

Digging deeper there are mechanisms for long time on internal X side (see https://www.x.org/releases/X11R7.6/doc/xorg-docs/specs/Xserver/XACE-Spec.html https://www.x.org/releases/X11R7.6/doc/xorg-docs/specs/Xserv... ) - granted never seen it practically implemented. And going to rabbit hole there are even proof of concept security implementation named Xnamespace for Xorg fork (needs polishing and much more patches but looks doable. see wip documentation: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/X11Libre/xserver/d2b60a3d6c753fa4dd43b4ffd84a8ec49d44912f/doc/Xnamespace.md https://raw.githubusercontent.com/X11Libre/xserver/d2b60a3d6... )

lotharcable 11mo ago
The way X11 developers ended up fixing this is by creating Wayland. This way privileged operations (like keylogging, screen capture, etc) require the cooperation and authentication through the display server.
- embedding-shape 11mo ago
  That way you also prevent things possible in X11 to be impossible in Wayland, like a window setting it's own position, if you were to want that.
  - lotharcable 11mo ago
    Fixing X11's security would of broken window positioning as well. Since that is a security issue. The deal here is that the only way to fix X11's security issues is by breaking all those types of workflows and forcing application rewrites to implement them in authenticated ways. So if you are going have to go and break all that stuff, why not fix a crapload of other problems while you are at it? Calling Wayland "X13" may have avoided a lot of misunderstandings, but it probably would of caused others.
    - embedding-shape 11mo ago
      > Since that is a security issue. Maybe it's both? There are applications with good reason that need to chose their location themselves, and users who want that type of behavior, so it's definitively not just a security issue.
  - accelbred 11mo ago
    Good. Disallowing software to position its own windows has been a major usability improvement over the X11 days of software making stupid positioning decisions and having to patch it out everywhere...
    - embedding-shape 11mo ago
      Yeah, assuming all users and all software should work the same idea is a great way to get people moving to a new platform. Maybe, just maybe, some people know what they want, and if they want applications that can put themselves in specific corners, why shouldn't the desktop let the applications do that, if the user is OK with it?
    - immibis 11mo ago
      ... Not allowing windows to determine their own position is also a usability nightmare.
- deleted 11mo ago
  [deleted]
- mikkupikku 11mo ago
  That sort of solution is cancer if you want to do anything the display server authors didn't think of. I've got a script that I invoke with a global hotkey that determines the window title of the currently focused window and fuzzy matches it against pipewire audio stream names so I can mute the focused window with a single keypress. If I want that to work in Wayland I'm pretty much up shit creek because somebody with their head in the clouds thinks that my needs are super dangerous or something.
  - justin66 11mo ago
    > That sort of solution is cancer if you want to do anything the display server authors didn't think of. Hey come on man, a locking screen saver is a totally niche application. No demand for that.
    - mikkupikku 11mo ago
      xscreensaver works just fine. It only needs to keep nosy roommates out, not the NSA. Not that Wayland would stop spooks anyway.
      - udev4096 11mo ago
        Totally unrelated, I like your nickname :)
      - justin66 11mo ago
        It doesn’t lock the screen properly under Wayland. There’s an abyss of complaining about Wayland on jwz’s blog. https://www.jwz.org/blog/2025/07/xscreensaver-wayland-and-locking/ https://www.jwz.org/blog/2025/07/xscreensaver-wayland-and-lo...
        justin66 11mo ago
        Also balls
        ethin 11mo ago
- kasabali 11mo ago
  > The way X11 developers X.org developers, not X11 developers.

by mrktf 11mo ago

lotharcable 11mo ago

The way X11 developers ended up fixing this is by creating Wayland. This way privileged operations (like keylogging, screen capture, etc) require the cooperation and authentication through the display server.

embedding-shape 11mo ago
That way you also prevent things possible in X11 to be impossible in Wayland, like a window setting it's own position, if you were to want that.
- lotharcable 11mo ago
  Fixing X11's security would of broken window positioning as well. Since that is a security issue. The deal here is that the only way to fix X11's security issues is by breaking all those types of workflows and forcing application rewrites to implement them in authenticated ways. So if you are going have to go and break all that stuff, why not fix a crapload of other problems while you are at it? Calling Wayland "X13" may have avoided a lot of misunderstandings, but it probably would of caused others.
  - embedding-shape 11mo ago
    > Since that is a security issue. Maybe it's both? There are applications with good reason that need to chose their location themselves, and users who want that type of behavior, so it's definitively not just a security issue.
- accelbred 11mo ago
  Good. Disallowing software to position its own windows has been a major usability improvement over the X11 days of software making stupid positioning decisions and having to patch it out everywhere...
  - embedding-shape 11mo ago
    Yeah, assuming all users and all software should work the same idea is a great way to get people moving to a new platform. Maybe, just maybe, some people know what they want, and if they want applications that can put themselves in specific corners, why shouldn't the desktop let the applications do that, if the user is OK with it?
  - immibis 11mo ago
    ... Not allowing windows to determine their own position is also a usability nightmare.
deleted 11mo ago
[deleted]
mikkupikku 11mo ago
That sort of solution is cancer if you want to do anything the display server authors didn't think of. I've got a script that I invoke with a global hotkey that determines the window title of the currently focused window and fuzzy matches it against pipewire audio stream names so I can mute the focused window with a single keypress. If I want that to work in Wayland I'm pretty much up shit creek because somebody with their head in the clouds thinks that my needs are super dangerous or something.
- justin66 11mo ago
  > That sort of solution is cancer if you want to do anything the display server authors didn't think of. Hey come on man, a locking screen saver is a totally niche application. No demand for that.
  - mikkupikku 11mo ago
    xscreensaver works just fine. It only needs to keep nosy roommates out, not the NSA. Not that Wayland would stop spooks anyway.
    - udev4096 11mo ago
      Totally unrelated, I like your nickname :)
    - justin66 11mo ago
      It doesn’t lock the screen properly under Wayland. There’s an abyss of complaining about Wayland on jwz’s blog. https://www.jwz.org/blog/2025/07/xscreensaver-wayland-and-locking/ https://www.jwz.org/blog/2025/07/xscreensaver-wayland-and-lo...
      - justin66 11mo ago
        Also balls
      - ethin 11mo ago
kasabali 11mo ago
> The way X11 developers X.org developers, not X11 developers.