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Why should a country tolerate an information system designed to circumvent the enforcement of the law, no matter how you individually feel about that laws. We b

Why should a country tolerate an information system designed to circumvent the enforcement of the law, no matter how you individually feel about that laws. We boot fraudulent or illegal apps all the time. What about an app that reports every LEO (not just ICE) around you? What would that accomplish except benefit criminals? "Rules for thee, not for me."

samus 1y ago
Such apps can be forbidden by law, and then this would be quite unambiguous. This is criticizing a company bending over backwards to what the government wants. Not really surprising, since none of these companies supports free speech for the sake of it, but to further its business, but still.
- MichaelZuo 1y ago
  “ bending over backwards” seems to be just an opinion, or collection of opinions…? I don’t have a dog in this fight, but clearly there has to be some credible argument why opinion X is better than opinion Y (held by company decision makers). Assuming it’s just automatically better isn’t productive.
  - samus 1y ago
    Indeed, an opinion held by legal experts, as the title of the submission quite clearly expresses.
  - samus 1y ago
    Indeed, an opinion held by legal experts, as the title of the submission quite clearly expresses. And on the other hand there is a history of Apple refusing other government requests. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple%E2%80%93FBI_encryption_dispute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple%E2%80%93FBI_encryption_d...
    - MichaelZuo 1y ago
      It doesn’t matter if every expert concurred, arguments from authority can not lead to opinion X becoming superior to opinion Y. At least not in a logically valid way.
      - samus 1y ago
        A government agency can tell people whatever it wants, if it doesn't have a legal basis then it has no authority. Unless it doesn't respect the rule of law. It might and probably will follow up its orders with force, but that's still not lawful.
        MichaelZuo 1y ago
        Did you reply to the wrong comment? I don’t see how it relates to the prior comment.
        samus 1y ago
        What is an "argument from authority"?
        MichaelZuo 1y ago
        Exactly what it sounds like? An argument that pretends some authority can effect the logic of an argument?
        samus 11mo ago
        What does that mean? A government agency can ask a company to do something. But unless there is legal force behind the order, it is nothing more than a request and can be ignored. In ambiguous cases the lawyers of each side will decide if they want to go to court over the matter. Eventually either the government will fold or the company will give in to the request. Until then it is a matter of opinion. Of course the government could also exert other means to pressure the company or simply negotiate. But that's outside of the rule of law.
DoctorOW 1y ago
> Why should a country tolerate an information system designed to circumvent the enforcement of the law This is the party line, but in practice ICE is not acting 100% within lines of the law. Unfortunately, it's possible for politicians, and even entire government agencies to lie. The evidence shows that ICE has both failed to enforce the law, and even follow the law themselves. This puts ICEBlock within other crime mapping or offender identifying tools.
gruez 1y ago
>What about an app that reports every LEO (not just ICE) around you? What would that accomplish except benefit criminals? Do you think apps like waze should also be illegal? What possible reason would you want location of speed trap except to speed with impunity? Moreover whether it "benefits criminals" is irrelevant here, because the current legal standard is imminent lawless action[1]. Otherwise that would be license to ban all manner of materials, from anarchists cookbook to DRM circumvention tools. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imminent_lawless_action https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imminent_lawless_action
- CjHuber 1y ago
  So how do you explain that the government of France for example publishes the exact location of all speed cameras online?
  - FireBeyond 1y ago
    How do you explain that it is illegal in Virginia to advise someone of the location of a speed camera?
    - CjHuber 1y ago
      My point was, if speed camera warnings are only for people wanting to break the law how would you explain this site to exist. https://radars.securite-routiere.gouv.fr/#/ https://radars.securite-routiere.gouv.fr/#/ sos it means there has to be at least one other reasons for warning people of speed cameras which is not breaking the law, or do you think the French authorities want you to help break the law there? I don't know which one but there has to be one right? As for the US I'd say with a cynical pragmatism it's because they are privatized afaik and thus have a big lobby lol
  - akk0 1y ago
    It's illegal to have navigation in your vehicle tell you there's a camera coming up in France, enforced and punished by high fines (I moved here from NL which has no such law).
CamperBob2 1y ago
What would that accomplish except benefit criminals? There's an unbounded downside to allowing government too much power, including the power to act unobserved. Empowering criminals also has obvious drawbacks, but they're limited in scope. "Rules for thee, not for me." Those sympathetic to the American political right don't get to use that saying anymore, not even ironically. Not because it's offensive, but because they've effectively turned it into a tautology.
mcphage 1y ago
> What about an app that reports every LEO (not just ICE) around you? What would that accomplish except benefit criminals? What if the real criminals were ICE all along?
- haskellshill 1y ago
  What if drug dealers are good guys actually?
  - tastyface 1y ago
    "Federal drug prosecutions fall to lowest level in decades as Trump shifts focus to deportations" https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/federal-drug-prosecutions-fall-lowest-level-decades-trump-shifts-focus-2025-09-29/ https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/federal-drug-prosec...
jdgoesmarching 1y ago
So no country should tolerate Signal? If you’re someone who believes that ICE is only enforcing real laws and innocent people don’t need to be concerned, please get in touch with my bridge sales department.
potato3732842 1y ago
God forbid laws that don't have strong support among the people be nigh on impossible to enforce effectively. I have zero problem with fed-cops not being able to "do their job" in unfriendly jurisdictions without bringing serious amounts of force with them.

samus 1y ago

Such apps can be forbidden by law, and then this would be quite unambiguous. This is criticizing a company bending over backwards to what the government wants. Not really surprising, since none of these companies supports free speech for the sake of it, but to further its business, but still.

MichaelZuo 1y ago
“ bending over backwards” seems to be just an opinion, or collection of opinions…? I don’t have a dog in this fight, but clearly there has to be some credible argument why opinion X is better than opinion Y (held by company decision makers). Assuming it’s just automatically better isn’t productive.
- samus 1y ago
  Indeed, an opinion held by legal experts, as the title of the submission quite clearly expresses.
- samus 1y ago
  Indeed, an opinion held by legal experts, as the title of the submission quite clearly expresses. And on the other hand there is a history of Apple refusing other government requests. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple%E2%80%93FBI_encryption_dispute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple%E2%80%93FBI_encryption_d...
  - MichaelZuo 1y ago
    It doesn’t matter if every expert concurred, arguments from authority can not lead to opinion X becoming superior to opinion Y. At least not in a logically valid way.
    - samus 1y ago
      A government agency can tell people whatever it wants, if it doesn't have a legal basis then it has no authority. Unless it doesn't respect the rule of law. It might and probably will follow up its orders with force, but that's still not lawful.
      - MichaelZuo 1y ago
        Did you reply to the wrong comment? I don’t see how it relates to the prior comment.
        samus 1y ago
        What is an "argument from authority"?
        MichaelZuo 1y ago
        Exactly what it sounds like? An argument that pretends some authority can effect the logic of an argument?
        samus 11mo ago
        What does that mean? A government agency can ask a company to do something. But unless there is legal force behind the order, it is nothing more than a request and can be ignored. In ambiguous cases the lawyers of each side will decide if they want to go to court over the matter. Eventually either the government will fold or the company will give in to the request. Until then it is a matter of opinion. Of course the government could also exert other means to pressure the company or simply negotiate. But that's outside of the rule of law.

DoctorOW 1y ago

> Why should a country tolerate an information system designed to circumvent the enforcement of the law This is the party line, but in practice ICE is not acting 100% within lines of the law. Unfortunately, it's possible for politicians, and even entire government agencies to lie. The evidence shows that ICE has both failed to enforce the law, and even follow the law themselves. This puts ICEBlock within other crime mapping or offender identifying tools.

gruez 1y ago

>What about an app that reports every LEO (not just ICE) around you? What would that accomplish except benefit criminals? Do you think apps like waze should also be illegal? What possible reason would you want location of speed trap except to speed with impunity? Moreover whether it "benefits criminals" is irrelevant here, because the current legal standard is imminent lawless action[1]. Otherwise that would be license to ban all manner of materials, from anarchists cookbook to DRM circumvention tools. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imminent_lawless_action https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imminent_lawless_action

CjHuber 1y ago
So how do you explain that the government of France for example publishes the exact location of all speed cameras online?
- FireBeyond 1y ago
  How do you explain that it is illegal in Virginia to advise someone of the location of a speed camera?
  - CjHuber 1y ago
    My point was, if speed camera warnings are only for people wanting to break the law how would you explain this site to exist. https://radars.securite-routiere.gouv.fr/#/ https://radars.securite-routiere.gouv.fr/#/ sos it means there has to be at least one other reasons for warning people of speed cameras which is not breaking the law, or do you think the French authorities want you to help break the law there? I don't know which one but there has to be one right? As for the US I'd say with a cynical pragmatism it's because they are privatized afaik and thus have a big lobby lol
- akk0 1y ago
  It's illegal to have navigation in your vehicle tell you there's a camera coming up in France, enforced and punished by high fines (I moved here from NL which has no such law).

CamperBob2 1y ago

What would that accomplish except benefit criminals? There's an unbounded downside to allowing government too much power, including the power to act unobserved. Empowering criminals also has obvious drawbacks, but they're limited in scope. "Rules for thee, not for me." Those sympathetic to the American political right don't get to use that saying anymore, not even ironically. Not because it's offensive, but because they've effectively turned it into a tautology.

mcphage 1y ago

> What about an app that reports every LEO (not just ICE) around you? What would that accomplish except benefit criminals? What if the real criminals were ICE all along?

haskellshill 1y ago
What if drug dealers are good guys actually?
- tastyface 1y ago
  "Federal drug prosecutions fall to lowest level in decades as Trump shifts focus to deportations" https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/federal-drug-prosecutions-fall-lowest-level-decades-trump-shifts-focus-2025-09-29/ https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/federal-drug-prosec...

jdgoesmarching 1y ago

So no country should tolerate Signal? If you’re someone who believes that ICE is only enforcing real laws and innocent people don’t need to be concerned, please get in touch with my bridge sales department.

potato3732842 1y ago

God forbid laws that don't have strong support among the people be nigh on impossible to enforce effectively. I have zero problem with fed-cops not being able to "do their job" in unfriendly jurisdictions without bringing serious amounts of force with them.