7 ms·

This is different though. PP is saying that you require a phone number to sign up, and phone numbers are being used to match your account to your user name.

password4321 1y ago
Agreed as far as governments tracking Signal sign-ups. For a long time though user names were not even supported between Signal users.
Citizen8396 1y ago
"As a new default, your phone number will no longer be visible to everyone in Signal." https://support.signal.org/hc/en-us/articles/6712070553754-Phone-Number-Privacy-and-Usernames https://support.signal.org/hc/en-us/articles/6712070553754-P... "Signal does not send your phone number to anyone unless you have enabled that others can see it and then you send them a message or make a call to them." https://support.signal.org/hc/en-us/articles/360007061452-Does-Signal-send-my-number-to-my-contacts https://support.signal.org/hc/en-us/articles/360007061452-Do...
- beeflet 1y ago
  This doesn't address the security problem
  - godelski 1y ago
    > the security problem You're confusing privacy with security. Phone numbers are a privacy problem and NOT a security problem. Think of it this way. There's a vault that's locked with secrets inside, but the door is transparent. This does not prevent privacy. But the vault provides security. Signal is not a transparent door, but is opaque. You can't see inside the vault. But the phone number reveals that you have access to the vault. This is very different than a security problem. Anyone connecting the two can see that you have a vault (security)[0], but they cannot see inside (privacy) or even when you access it (privacy). There is no security issue with phone numbers. [0] or can see that at some point in time you had a vault or someone that previously had that number had a vault
    - willis936 1y ago
      Is there not a security problem if your phone number is seized? I don't need excuses about the likelihood of the threat model.
      - godelski 1y ago
        If your number is seized then the new account holder has no chat history. i.e. the vault is cleared out. In that situation you will also be kicked out, clearly telling you that your account has been hijacked. You can also lock registration of your device. What is your security concern here?
        beeflet 1y ago
        Impersonation, MITM attack
        mandevil 1y ago
        If you have done the out-of-band safety number verification, then impersonation attempts will give you a warning that their safety number has changed. I know this because I got that error when my wife replaced her cell phone. I believe (though I haven't verified it myself) that even if you haven't verified the numbers using an out-of-band exchange mechanism, you will get a warning if the safety number as observed by their server changes. I believe they would need to know your Signal PIN to restore from backup, which means that even if you've set that it will give an alert, presuming basic security competence from the people you are conversing with.
        AnonC 1y ago
        > If you have done the out-of-band safety number verification I personally have never seen anyone do this, even when they’re supposed to do it right from the very beginning. So practically this is of very little value to most of the user base.
        vel0city 1y ago
- heavyset_go 1y ago
  Neither of these are the issue, the issue is the required association of a phone number with a Signal account. You cannot register a Signal account without a phone number. It's something you'd want to avoid if your life, liberty or well-being are at risk if you're de-anonymized.
  - joemazerino 1y ago
    Realistically could use an e-sim or text verification service to sign up.
    - heavyset_go 1y ago
      Signal, like most services, block text verification services, free texting apps, etc. e-SIM wise, depending on where you are, that might require identifying yourself, and depending on your threat model, having to purchase one in person or with payment info that can be traced back to you might be too risky. Same thing when it comes to using one in a device you own, or in a location that can help de-anonymize you. In the end, Signal does this because they know the ban hammer would come down hard on them from the Justice Department and every state AG and legislature if Signal allowed bad actors to anonymously use their app and network to commit crimes. The issue is that there are plenty of people who are not doing heinous things whose security and anonymity might be at risk because of the measure put in place to placate governments.
      - big-and-small 1y ago
        [dead]
    - password4321 1y ago
      Google Voice worked for me a few years ago
- michaelsshaw 1y ago
  This entire post does not follow

password4321 1y ago

Agreed as far as governments tracking Signal sign-ups. For a long time though user names were not even supported between Signal users.

Citizen8396 1y ago

"As a new default, your phone number will no longer be visible to everyone in Signal." https://support.signal.org/hc/en-us/articles/6712070553754-Phone-Number-Privacy-and-Usernames https://support.signal.org/hc/en-us/articles/6712070553754-P... "Signal does not send your phone number to anyone unless you have enabled that others can see it and then you send them a message or make a call to them." https://support.signal.org/hc/en-us/articles/360007061452-Does-Signal-send-my-number-to-my-contacts https://support.signal.org/hc/en-us/articles/360007061452-Do...

beeflet 1y ago
This doesn't address the security problem
- godelski 1y ago
  > the security problem You're confusing privacy with security. Phone numbers are a privacy problem and NOT a security problem. Think of it this way. There's a vault that's locked with secrets inside, but the door is transparent. This does not prevent privacy. But the vault provides security. Signal is not a transparent door, but is opaque. You can't see inside the vault. But the phone number reveals that you have access to the vault. This is very different than a security problem. Anyone connecting the two can see that you have a vault (security)[0], but they cannot see inside (privacy) or even when you access it (privacy). There is no security issue with phone numbers. [0] or can see that at some point in time you had a vault or someone that previously had that number had a vault
  - willis936 1y ago
    Is there not a security problem if your phone number is seized? I don't need excuses about the likelihood of the threat model.
    - godelski 1y ago
      If your number is seized then the new account holder has no chat history. i.e. the vault is cleared out. In that situation you will also be kicked out, clearly telling you that your account has been hijacked. You can also lock registration of your device. What is your security concern here?
      - beeflet 1y ago
        Impersonation, MITM attack
        mandevil 1y ago
        If you have done the out-of-band safety number verification, then impersonation attempts will give you a warning that their safety number has changed. I know this because I got that error when my wife replaced her cell phone. I believe (though I haven't verified it myself) that even if you haven't verified the numbers using an out-of-band exchange mechanism, you will get a warning if the safety number as observed by their server changes. I believe they would need to know your Signal PIN to restore from backup, which means that even if you've set that it will give an alert, presuming basic security competence from the people you are conversing with.
        AnonC 1y ago
        > If you have done the out-of-band safety number verification I personally have never seen anyone do this, even when they’re supposed to do it right from the very beginning. So practically this is of very little value to most of the user base.
        vel0city 1y ago
heavyset_go 1y ago
Neither of these are the issue, the issue is the required association of a phone number with a Signal account. You cannot register a Signal account without a phone number. It's something you'd want to avoid if your life, liberty or well-being are at risk if you're de-anonymized.
- joemazerino 1y ago
  Realistically could use an e-sim or text verification service to sign up.
  - heavyset_go 1y ago
    Signal, like most services, block text verification services, free texting apps, etc. e-SIM wise, depending on where you are, that might require identifying yourself, and depending on your threat model, having to purchase one in person or with payment info that can be traced back to you might be too risky. Same thing when it comes to using one in a device you own, or in a location that can help de-anonymize you. In the end, Signal does this because they know the ban hammer would come down hard on them from the Justice Department and every state AG and legislature if Signal allowed bad actors to anonymously use their app and network to commit crimes. The issue is that there are plenty of people who are not doing heinous things whose security and anonymity might be at risk because of the measure put in place to placate governments.
    - big-and-small 1y ago
      [dead]
  - password4321 1y ago
    Google Voice worked for me a few years ago
michaelsshaw 1y ago
This entire post does not follow