6 ms·

How is this not a problem with the law rather than a problem with Cloudflare?

Spivak 1y ago
Because human nature is what it is. The best way to eat better isn't to be a better person, it's to not keep junk food at the house. It's not Cloudflare's fault that they're successful, but it's now everyone's problem that they're an easy throat for governments to choke.
- ipaddr 1y ago
  It is their fault they are successful. They worked hard to get there.
tavavex 1y ago
It's both. In allowing Cloudflare to grow so big, we now have one huge universal button for governments to push. If instead all of these customers were dispersed over hundreds of different services from different countries, good luck with trying to keep them all in line with your specific country's whims.
- otabdeveloper4 1y ago
  Worse, governments can also just block Cloudflare's IP ranges wholesale - because Cloudflare is used to launder IP addresses for sites with shady and/or illegal content. Legitimate sites get blocked too, but most governments probably won't care.
  - DoctorOW 1y ago
    Isn't this an argument in favor of centralization? Right now, those legitimate sites include many government websites which means that most governments do care. You know what IP block they definitely don't use? A tiny provider for DIY blogs or whatever.
godelski 1y ago
Also, remember that time that Cloudflare didn't take down a Nazi website because they didn't want to be arbiters of the internet but then everyone accused Cloudflare of supporting Neo Nazis. That this led to boycotts so they ended up taking down the site and wrote a blog post being like "fine, but this is dumb" That didn't really have to do with the law. You could segue it was a free market action. Though there were definitely legal threats as well. (There's even people here in this thread making similar claims of Cloudflare supporting specific groups/content) https://blog.cloudflare.com/why-we-terminated-daily-stormer/ https://blog.cloudflare.com/why-we-terminated-daily-stormer/
- wahnfrieden 1y ago
  Or the time they knowingly employed a Nazi
  - _heimdall 1y ago
    Are you arguing for a system where employers consider your political views before hiring you? And no this is not an attempt to in anyway belittle what Nazi German did during WWII. Assuming the employee you are referring to has never been engaged in such acts, though, that feels like a very slippery slope.
    - mschild 1y ago
      Part of being a Nazi means the sincere believe that the Aryan race is superior to all others and that eradicating them is a sensible goal. Thats not a political view. Its one of racism and finding genocide acceptable. I would sincerely hope that any sensible person would refuse to hire someone like this.
      - dotancohen 1y ago
        The Azov brigade are not Aryan.
        1y ago
BHSPitMonkey 1y ago
I think it's being pointed out as an inherent weakness of greater centralization when it comes to the internet's resiliency against government interference and censorship. The internet used to be much more decentralized than it is today.
egorfine 1y ago
It is a forbidden rule of discussion to refer to Hitler and Nazis but I still want to point out that holocaust was fully legal.
- estsauver 1y ago
  So, interestingly, the places that actually did the worst in the Holocaust were generally the places where there were the least legal structures--even though you would expect it to be worst for Jews in Germany, it was often Poland and other states that had all legal structures and civil institutions destroyed who had it the worst. https://www.amazon.nl/Black-Earth-Holocaust-History-Warning/dp/1101903457 https://www.amazon.nl/Black-Earth-Holocaust-History-Warning/...
tgsovlerkhgsel 1y ago
The growth of Cloudflare is what makes the law possible. Several countries have stupid laws around online child protection, that are universally ignored and universally not enforced simply because there is no reasonable way to comply. Others might be tempted to introduce new stupid laws once they become feasible. That doesn't make it Cloudflare's fault, but the centralization is still a problem.

Because human nature is what it is. The best way to eat better isn't to be a better person, it's to not keep junk food at the house. It's not Cloudflare's fault that they're successful, but it's now everyone's problem that they're an easy throat for governments to choke.

ipaddr 1y ago
It is their fault they are successful. They worked hard to get there.

tavavex 1y ago

It's both. In allowing Cloudflare to grow so big, we now have one huge universal button for governments to push. If instead all of these customers were dispersed over hundreds of different services from different countries, good luck with trying to keep them all in line with your specific country's whims.

otabdeveloper4 1y ago
Worse, governments can also just block Cloudflare's IP ranges wholesale - because Cloudflare is used to launder IP addresses for sites with shady and/or illegal content. Legitimate sites get blocked too, but most governments probably won't care.
- DoctorOW 1y ago
  Isn't this an argument in favor of centralization? Right now, those legitimate sites include many government websites which means that most governments do care. You know what IP block they definitely don't use? A tiny provider for DIY blogs or whatever.

godelski 1y ago

Also, remember that time that Cloudflare didn't take down a Nazi website because they didn't want to be arbiters of the internet but then everyone accused Cloudflare of supporting Neo Nazis. That this led to boycotts so they ended up taking down the site and wrote a blog post being like "fine, but this is dumb" That didn't really have to do with the law. You could segue it was a free market action. Though there were definitely legal threats as well. (There's even people here in this thread making similar claims of Cloudflare supporting specific groups/content) https://blog.cloudflare.com/why-we-terminated-daily-stormer/ https://blog.cloudflare.com/why-we-terminated-daily-stormer/

wahnfrieden 1y ago
Or the time they knowingly employed a Nazi
- _heimdall 1y ago
  Are you arguing for a system where employers consider your political views before hiring you? And no this is not an attempt to in anyway belittle what Nazi German did during WWII. Assuming the employee you are referring to has never been engaged in such acts, though, that feels like a very slippery slope.
  - mschild 1y ago
    Part of being a Nazi means the sincere believe that the Aryan race is superior to all others and that eradicating them is a sensible goal. Thats not a political view. Its one of racism and finding genocide acceptable. I would sincerely hope that any sensible person would refuse to hire someone like this.
    - dotancohen 1y ago
      The Azov brigade are not Aryan.
      - 1y ago

BHSPitMonkey 1y ago

I think it's being pointed out as an inherent weakness of greater centralization when it comes to the internet's resiliency against government interference and censorship. The internet used to be much more decentralized than it is today.

egorfine 1y ago

It is a forbidden rule of discussion to refer to Hitler and Nazis but I still want to point out that holocaust was fully legal.

estsauver 1y ago
So, interestingly, the places that actually did the worst in the Holocaust were generally the places where there were the least legal structures--even though you would expect it to be worst for Jews in Germany, it was often Poland and other states that had all legal structures and civil institutions destroyed who had it the worst. https://www.amazon.nl/Black-Earth-Holocaust-History-Warning/dp/1101903457 https://www.amazon.nl/Black-Earth-Holocaust-History-Warning/...

tgsovlerkhgsel 1y ago

The growth of Cloudflare is what makes the law possible. Several countries have stupid laws around online child protection, that are universally ignored and universally not enforced simply because there is no reasonable way to comply. Others might be tempted to introduce new stupid laws once they become feasible. That doesn't make it Cloudflare's fault, but the centralization is still a problem.