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I think it's amazing to have a massive commercially successful game such as Minecraft give the fans the ability to be very liberal with what they can do with it

I think it's amazing to have a massive commercially successful game such as Minecraft give the fans the ability to be very liberal with what they can do with it. Now we have open-source re-implementaions that are pretty close to vanilla!

charcircuit 1y ago
It was like that until 2012. Ever since then they've been tightening down further and further.
CalRobert 1y ago
MS is slowly killing off Java so they can push Bedrock (much less flexible) on everyone though. And all my daughter's friends use Bedrock :-\. I have a server with GeyserMC running to let them play together but it definitely isn't what it once was.
- terribleperson 1y ago
  Bedrock might be more popular, but I think there is a large community with absolutely zero interest in ever moving away from Java. I will never go back to playing Minecraft without Distant Horizons after experiencing it, so Bedrock is absolutely not an option for me unless they added real LOD features natively.
  - CalRobert 1y ago
    The kids all seem to use tablets or windows with bedrock though, my own are the odd ones out with Java on Linux.
    - Imustaskforhelp 1y ago
      A lot of windows users use java on windows too. I do think that I have yet to see a bedrock player on windows as compared to java player on windows & I have been playing minecraft for so long and joined so many discord communities of minecraft related as well and that's my experience. Java is really peak minecraft, with modpacks as well. You should try out prismlauncher, its open source and works quite smoothly on linux and you can try a lot of modpacks which the bedrock players can't play. Fabuously Optimized is a must have modpack given how efficient it can make minecraft / give fps boosts
      - terribleperson 1y ago
        Prism launcher is a great piece of software, takes a lot of the pain out of modded minecraft.
  - squigz 1y ago
    Distant Horizons is awesome. Too bad my computer really does not agree :P
    - terribleperson 1y ago
      It's a bit hard on the CPU for sure, but running a server and pregeneration both help.
  - Gigachad 1y ago
    Tbh bedrock natively supports massive render distances. Not as far as distant horizons but way way further than Java edition.
  - accrual 1y ago
    > Bedrock might be more popular, but I think there is a large community with absolutely zero interest in ever moving away from Java. Yes, exactly. It seems the demographic for Bedrock tends towards kids because it's supported on tablets. IME the demographic for Java is either older kids or adults or people with interest in modpacks, which is a lot of people. All the major YouTubers who have run worlds for challenges for years are all on Java. Whenever someone in my group asks to play some MC, there's no "Bedrock or Java?" question, it's just Java every time. The only major thing Bedrock has right now that Java doesn't is the new stock shaders, but I assume that is coming to Java soon.
    - Kerbiter 1y ago
      > The only major thing Bedrock has right now that Java doesn't is the new stock shaders, but I assume that is coming to Java soon. RealismCraft 2.0 would like to have a word with you. And it's paid. https://youtu.be/s3IiifuzjgU https://youtu.be/s3IiifuzjgU
- p0w3n3d 1y ago
  During ramblings about new Minecraft jeb_ recently said that java is not going to be sunsetted, or at least that's what I understood. Of course the course of Microsoft and jeb_ might be different and he might get pushed towards some decisions later. The problem is that kids nowadays don't use computers. They use phones and tablets. For me Minecraft experience on phone is awful but there are many young generations that consider it native way of playing games
  - ksymph 1y ago
    Note that you can play Minecraft Java on Android with PojavLauncher: https://github.com/PojavLauncherTeam/PojavLauncher https://github.com/PojavLauncherTeam/PojavLauncher Although I see now that the project is archived, not sure the story behind that.
    - grgergo 1y ago
      It got forked as Amethyst[1] after it was taken off Google Play and some drama with the privacy policy. [1]: https://github.com/AngelAuraMC/Amethyst-Android/ https://github.com/AngelAuraMC/Amethyst-Android/
- xboxnolifes 1y ago
  By the time Mojang kills off Java, mod developers will have backported the entirety of modern Minecraft to 1.7.10.
  - bombcar 1y ago
    Minecraft itself is just a mod on 1.7.10, the One True Release.
    - mcv 1y ago
      I have to ask: what's so special about 1.7.10?
      - bombcar 1y ago
        It is one of the versions that lots of mods were made for, and so some significant mod packs have stayed with it for decades. Part of it was the almost year between 1.7.x and 1.8, so some major mods like Thaumcraft never made the jump. Gregtech New Horizons (GTNH) has been back porting mods and features to 1.7.10 (like the ability to run on Java 20+) because that’s easier than porting the whole mod pack forward.
        fishgoesblub 1y ago
        Part of the reason was 1.8 Forge made it so most mods had to be re-written iirc. Also, Thaumcraft updated past 1.7 (Unfinished as Azanor left modding, but that's besides the point)
- squigz 1y ago
  No they're not? Vanilla Java gets updates too, and even if they were, the modding scene is as vibrant as ever.
- dm319 1y ago
  I find bedrock has much better performance than java. It runs very nicely using the MCPE launcher on linux.
  - lacksconfidence 1y ago
    The performance is nice, but the advanced modding scene is non-existent. In java a mod author can do just about anything they can imagine and write code for. Somehow i doubt we will ever see dimensional doors as a bedrock mod.
  - presbyterian 1y ago
    I have the opposite experience, unfortunately. It's not a perfect comparison, but my base M1 MacBook Pro (8GB RAM) gets consistently solid performance out of Java edition, but my M3 iPad Air (also 8GB RAM, but better chip) drops frames constantly in Bedrock.
- axus 1y ago
  The impression I got was they actively promote Bedrock, but take the necessary steps to keep Java supported. They make more money from Bedrock, makes sense to budget there.
somat 1y ago
Minecraft is wierd because all that amazing modding that is done is in spite of mojang not because of them. I have not played minecraft in a few years but I think nothing has changed. Mojang, even pre microsoft, has never provided any sort of modding support. I grew up on quake where ID would give you the game code and tools necessary to make mods. Mojang gave nothing. modding on minecraft involved decompiling the bytecode, dealing with the terrible symbols the decompiler gave you then recompiling it back into a jar. It was ugly and unpleasant. later the bigger efforts produced some tooling and libraries to make this better, but mojang had no part in this. So minecraft is wierd, one of the most modded game in existence, yet the developers have provided no mod support.
- numberless 1y ago
  They do provide deobfuscation maps these days at least
- herbst 1y ago
  That's where I got my update anxiety from. Everything was broken after every update, but we loved the updates still. It wasn't easy and majong did not help back then.
- xboxnolifes 1y ago
  I don't know if it was done with modding in mind or not, but the transition to data packs was a non-trivial addition of mod support.
  - immibis 1y ago
    At the cost of inner-platform-effecting all the game code. Long-time software engineers know all about the inner platform effect - if not, see [1]. Instead of writing directly what you want, something like: new Block("mymod:mystone").setShape(Shapes.CUBE).setTexture("mymod:stone_texture").setStepSound(Sounds.STEP_ON_STONE)... you now have to do some of this inline (the part that can't be customized in data packs): new Block("mymod:mystone").setStepSound(Sounds.STEP_ON_STONE)... but the rest is looked up across 5 different cross-referenced JSON files full of magic values with no autocomplete or syntax highlighting. Start with an indirection layer in assets/mymod/blockstates/mystone.json: [2] {"variants": {"": {"model": "mystone"}}} then of course you have to actually specify how to display the block: [3] {"parent": "minecraft:block/cube_all", "textures": {"all": "fabric-docs-reference:block/steel_block"}} (you see that? there are inheritance and variables in Minecraft's ad-hoc JSON language) You need a second file to specify how to display the item when it's held in your hand. Usually it's similar boilerplate. But have a look at the abomination that is "item property overrides" [4] [5] as an example of inner-platforming. Instead of render(is_cast ? cast_model : uncast_model); there's this whole infrastructure of a registry of item property predicates written in Java which can then be referenced in JSON to select a different model file under specific conditions. [1] https://thedailywtf.com/articles/the_inner-platform_effect https://thedailywtf.com/articles/the_inner-platform_effect [2] https://docs.minecraftforge.net/en/1.12.x/models/blockstates/introduction/ https://docs.minecraftforge.net/en/1.12.x/models/blockstates... [3] https://docs.fabricmc.net/develop/data-generation/block-models https://docs.fabricmc.net/develop/data-generation/block-mode... [4] https://docs.minecraftforge.net/en/1.12.x/models/overrides/ https://docs.minecraftforge.net/en/1.12.x/models/overrides/ [5] https://minecraft.fandom.com/wiki/Tutorials/Models#Example:_Fishing_Rod https://minecraft.fandom.com/wiki/Tutorials/Models#Example:_...
dusted 1y ago
I played the original a lot, and lots of modding, but I prefer Luanti these days. There are lots of great games in it, and many of them are very much Minecraft, others explore entirely different approaches which can be very interesting as well. I'm spending some hours playing with my 5 year old too, and it's great.
hnthrowaway1956 1y ago
no, they don't allow it, they maybe begrudgingly tolerate it. They have a history of false-copyright striking youtube videos, and they've recently started using AI (Tracer AI) to DMCA-spray claims, some of which are obviously nonsensical. Of course, they are fine with you making youtube videos about their game (itdraws people in) but try making a video about a bit darker topics related to the game and you can quickly find your video striked. I even found an instance of a project like this one (a unfinished open-source MC clone which is vaguely similar but original assets and code and everything) receiving an LLM-written copyright claim based on "it looks similar and that's protected by our IP"

charcircuit 1y ago

It was like that until 2012. Ever since then they've been tightening down further and further.

CalRobert 1y ago

MS is slowly killing off Java so they can push Bedrock (much less flexible) on everyone though. And all my daughter's friends use Bedrock :-\. I have a server with GeyserMC running to let them play together but it definitely isn't what it once was.

terribleperson 1y ago
Bedrock might be more popular, but I think there is a large community with absolutely zero interest in ever moving away from Java. I will never go back to playing Minecraft without Distant Horizons after experiencing it, so Bedrock is absolutely not an option for me unless they added real LOD features natively.
- CalRobert 1y ago
  The kids all seem to use tablets or windows with bedrock though, my own are the odd ones out with Java on Linux.
  - Imustaskforhelp 1y ago
    A lot of windows users use java on windows too. I do think that I have yet to see a bedrock player on windows as compared to java player on windows & I have been playing minecraft for so long and joined so many discord communities of minecraft related as well and that's my experience. Java is really peak minecraft, with modpacks as well. You should try out prismlauncher, its open source and works quite smoothly on linux and you can try a lot of modpacks which the bedrock players can't play. Fabuously Optimized is a must have modpack given how efficient it can make minecraft / give fps boosts
    - terribleperson 1y ago
      Prism launcher is a great piece of software, takes a lot of the pain out of modded minecraft.
- squigz 1y ago
  Distant Horizons is awesome. Too bad my computer really does not agree :P
  - terribleperson 1y ago
    It's a bit hard on the CPU for sure, but running a server and pregeneration both help.
- Gigachad 1y ago
  Tbh bedrock natively supports massive render distances. Not as far as distant horizons but way way further than Java edition.
- accrual 1y ago
  > Bedrock might be more popular, but I think there is a large community with absolutely zero interest in ever moving away from Java. Yes, exactly. It seems the demographic for Bedrock tends towards kids because it's supported on tablets. IME the demographic for Java is either older kids or adults or people with interest in modpacks, which is a lot of people. All the major YouTubers who have run worlds for challenges for years are all on Java. Whenever someone in my group asks to play some MC, there's no "Bedrock or Java?" question, it's just Java every time. The only major thing Bedrock has right now that Java doesn't is the new stock shaders, but I assume that is coming to Java soon.
  - Kerbiter 1y ago
    > The only major thing Bedrock has right now that Java doesn't is the new stock shaders, but I assume that is coming to Java soon. RealismCraft 2.0 would like to have a word with you. And it's paid. https://youtu.be/s3IiifuzjgU https://youtu.be/s3IiifuzjgU
p0w3n3d 1y ago
During ramblings about new Minecraft jeb_ recently said that java is not going to be sunsetted, or at least that's what I understood. Of course the course of Microsoft and jeb_ might be different and he might get pushed towards some decisions later. The problem is that kids nowadays don't use computers. They use phones and tablets. For me Minecraft experience on phone is awful but there are many young generations that consider it native way of playing games
- ksymph 1y ago
  Note that you can play Minecraft Java on Android with PojavLauncher: https://github.com/PojavLauncherTeam/PojavLauncher https://github.com/PojavLauncherTeam/PojavLauncher Although I see now that the project is archived, not sure the story behind that.
  - grgergo 1y ago
    It got forked as Amethyst[1] after it was taken off Google Play and some drama with the privacy policy. [1]: https://github.com/AngelAuraMC/Amethyst-Android/ https://github.com/AngelAuraMC/Amethyst-Android/
xboxnolifes 1y ago
By the time Mojang kills off Java, mod developers will have backported the entirety of modern Minecraft to 1.7.10.
- bombcar 1y ago
  Minecraft itself is just a mod on 1.7.10, the One True Release.
  - mcv 1y ago
    I have to ask: what's so special about 1.7.10?
    - bombcar 1y ago
      It is one of the versions that lots of mods were made for, and so some significant mod packs have stayed with it for decades. Part of it was the almost year between 1.7.x and 1.8, so some major mods like Thaumcraft never made the jump. Gregtech New Horizons (GTNH) has been back porting mods and features to 1.7.10 (like the ability to run on Java 20+) because that’s easier than porting the whole mod pack forward.
      - fishgoesblub 1y ago
        Part of the reason was 1.8 Forge made it so most mods had to be re-written iirc. Also, Thaumcraft updated past 1.7 (Unfinished as Azanor left modding, but that's besides the point)
squigz 1y ago
No they're not? Vanilla Java gets updates too, and even if they were, the modding scene is as vibrant as ever.
dm319 1y ago
I find bedrock has much better performance than java. It runs very nicely using the MCPE launcher on linux.
- lacksconfidence 1y ago
  The performance is nice, but the advanced modding scene is non-existent. In java a mod author can do just about anything they can imagine and write code for. Somehow i doubt we will ever see dimensional doors as a bedrock mod.
- presbyterian 1y ago
  I have the opposite experience, unfortunately. It's not a perfect comparison, but my base M1 MacBook Pro (8GB RAM) gets consistently solid performance out of Java edition, but my M3 iPad Air (also 8GB RAM, but better chip) drops frames constantly in Bedrock.
axus 1y ago
The impression I got was they actively promote Bedrock, but take the necessary steps to keep Java supported. They make more money from Bedrock, makes sense to budget there.

somat 1y ago

Minecraft is wierd because all that amazing modding that is done is in spite of mojang not because of them. I have not played minecraft in a few years but I think nothing has changed. Mojang, even pre microsoft, has never provided any sort of modding support. I grew up on quake where ID would give you the game code and tools necessary to make mods. Mojang gave nothing. modding on minecraft involved decompiling the bytecode, dealing with the terrible symbols the decompiler gave you then recompiling it back into a jar. It was ugly and unpleasant. later the bigger efforts produced some tooling and libraries to make this better, but mojang had no part in this. So minecraft is wierd, one of the most modded game in existence, yet the developers have provided no mod support.

numberless 1y ago
They do provide deobfuscation maps these days at least
herbst 1y ago
That's where I got my update anxiety from. Everything was broken after every update, but we loved the updates still. It wasn't easy and majong did not help back then.
xboxnolifes 1y ago
I don't know if it was done with modding in mind or not, but the transition to data packs was a non-trivial addition of mod support.
- immibis 1y ago
  At the cost of inner-platform-effecting all the game code. Long-time software engineers know all about the inner platform effect - if not, see [1]. Instead of writing directly what you want, something like: new Block("mymod:mystone").setShape(Shapes.CUBE).setTexture("mymod:stone_texture").setStepSound(Sounds.STEP_ON_STONE)... you now have to do some of this inline (the part that can't be customized in data packs): new Block("mymod:mystone").setStepSound(Sounds.STEP_ON_STONE)... but the rest is looked up across 5 different cross-referenced JSON files full of magic values with no autocomplete or syntax highlighting. Start with an indirection layer in assets/mymod/blockstates/mystone.json: [2] {"variants": {"": {"model": "mystone"}}} then of course you have to actually specify how to display the block: [3] {"parent": "minecraft:block/cube_all", "textures": {"all": "fabric-docs-reference:block/steel_block"}} (you see that? there are inheritance and variables in Minecraft's ad-hoc JSON language) You need a second file to specify how to display the item when it's held in your hand. Usually it's similar boilerplate. But have a look at the abomination that is "item property overrides" [4] [5] as an example of inner-platforming. Instead of render(is_cast ? cast_model : uncast_model); there's this whole infrastructure of a registry of item property predicates written in Java which can then be referenced in JSON to select a different model file under specific conditions. [1] https://thedailywtf.com/articles/the_inner-platform_effect https://thedailywtf.com/articles/the_inner-platform_effect [2] https://docs.minecraftforge.net/en/1.12.x/models/blockstates/introduction/ https://docs.minecraftforge.net/en/1.12.x/models/blockstates... [3] https://docs.fabricmc.net/develop/data-generation/block-models https://docs.fabricmc.net/develop/data-generation/block-mode... [4] https://docs.minecraftforge.net/en/1.12.x/models/overrides/ https://docs.minecraftforge.net/en/1.12.x/models/overrides/ [5] https://minecraft.fandom.com/wiki/Tutorials/Models#Example:_Fishing_Rod https://minecraft.fandom.com/wiki/Tutorials/Models#Example:_...

dusted 1y ago

I played the original a lot, and lots of modding, but I prefer Luanti these days. There are lots of great games in it, and many of them are very much Minecraft, others explore entirely different approaches which can be very interesting as well. I'm spending some hours playing with my 5 year old too, and it's great.

hnthrowaway1956 1y ago

no, they don't allow it, they maybe begrudgingly tolerate it. They have a history of false-copyright striking youtube videos, and they've recently started using AI (Tracer AI) to DMCA-spray claims, some of which are obviously nonsensical. Of course, they are fine with you making youtube videos about their game (itdraws people in) but try making a video about a bit darker topics related to the game and you can quickly find your video striked. I even found an instance of a project like this one (a unfinished open-source MC clone which is vaguely similar but original assets and code and everything) receiving an LLM-written copyright claim based on "it looks similar and that's protected by our IP"