7 ms·

As someone willing to put up with all manner of nonsense (overpriced/underpowered hardware, clunky UI, endless troubleshooting), battery life on mobile Linux de

As someone willing to put up with all manner of nonsense (overpriced/underpowered hardware, clunky UI, endless troubleshooting), battery life on mobile Linux devices alone prevents me from using them in the real world. Is there a single Linux phone/tablet that can last an 8 hour day of actual use? Librem/Pinephone/Juno can't. My uConsole can't. Different category, but my MNT mini laptop lasts like 4 hours and can't be left in standby for too long or it drains to zero. Meanwhile, it's been 10+ years since I've worried about daily battery life on mainstream mobile devices, even my 3-5 year old ones. I can fall asleep with Youtube playing and it's still playing when I wake up. I'm certainly not here to dunk on Linux phones. I want one! But if someone willing to put forth above average effort to use these devices can't realistically daily drive them, who can?

maheart 1y ago
>Is there a single Linux phone/tablet that can last an 8 hour day of actual use? What's "actual use"? Furi FLX1 has the best battery life I've seen on a Linux phone. Idling, it last 3+ days. I'm sure it could survive 1 whole day of "actual use". I also think almost any (official) SailfishOS device would last a day of actual use.
- nextos 1y ago
  SailfishOS is quite efficient. On Sony devices, I experienced maybe 15% extra battery life compared to stock Android, which is quite good given that Sony ROMs are excellent. Sony is known for their Sony Open Devices Program.
  - ux266478 1y ago
    I genuinely think if Sony offered a Linux phone and didn't lock it down too bad, they could serve as the catalyst for the whole market. I don't think I would trust any other company at this point to execute the platonic "Linux phone" we need. The uncompromising vision on building a fantastic product for the technically minded make them an obvious choice.
    - j45 1y ago
      Sony tries out so many different types of products too across their entire lineup. They have made some memorable handhelds over the years, even their eink readers were special.
      - gloxkiqcza 1y ago
        They also pulled a bait-and-switch with Linux on PS3...
        j45 1y ago
        No doubt. I was referring more to their variety of electronics in so many areas.
      - nextos 1y ago
        True. Sony is a conglomerate, which explains their business strategy. Lots of divisions and groups operate independently and have little coordination.
    - pabs3 1y ago
      I get the impression they shut it down, but Sony had/have the Xperia Open Devices program. They were close to having their devices running purely on the mainline Linux kernel: https://developer.sony.com/open-source https://developer.sony.com/open-source
- bobthecowboy 1y ago
  I've been considering this as my Android exit plan (as part of a slow rolling de-googling effort, even before the recent "sideloading" news). Are you using it as a daily driver? I'm sort of surprised it doesn't get brought up more.
  - maheart 1y ago
    Yes, I used SailfishOS as a daily driver since ~2014 until last year when I moved to the Furi FLX1. The FLX1 has been my daily driver since. SailfishOS is much more polished, but it's not fully FOSS, and it follows upstream much less closely. FLX1 is basically in-sync with Debian testing, with the exception of kernel.
    - cenamus 1y ago
      Are you able to run android apps aswell? Without whatsapp you're pretty much locked out from most communication around here...
      - kuuchuu 1y ago
        According to their FAQ (https://furilabs.com/faq/ https://furilabs.com/faq/), yes > FuriOS allows for running apps inside a container running Android codenamed Andromeda. This container has complete integration with the host and makes all Android applications work like native applications
      - maheart 1y ago
        Yes, both (official) SailfishOS and FLX1 offer decent/good Android app support. Not every app will work, but when I have needed Android (rarely, for basic stuff), the applications have worked.
    - poetaster 1y ago
      Interesting. I had a poke at postmarket, which wasn't ready in comparison with SFOS. Would you say the FLX1 is at better stage in development than postmarket?
- ttkari 1y ago
  I have a Sony Xperia 10 III with SailfishOS and it easily does 48 hours on a charge when I'm not doing a lot of screen time. Also on days when I use it for tracking / navigation on 6-8 hour bicycle rides it easily lasts for the entire day and then some. I think this is not bad for a device that has been in daily use for almost three years and still has the original battery. I'm running a couple of messenger clients and a web browser (Fennec under Android App Support as the native one is sadly a bit behind the times currently) all the time. The only thing I've noticed to eat a ton of battery is having wifi enabled when outside the range of my own networks, it seems the scanning the phone does in the background to look for known wifi networks is not energy efficient at all.
  - poetaster 1y ago
    I also have this setup and SFos on Gigaset GS5. Similar battery performance. I did a roadtrip last week with navigation (starting with about 90% battery) and after 5&1/2 hours navigation was down to 65% or therabouts. Works for me. And, yes, I often turn off wifi. I never go over my Data limits and 4G/5G is much more efficient for some reason.
- shaky-carrousel 1y ago
  Why isn't there more information about Furi FLX1 in the internet? Looks like a nice phone.
cranberryturkey 1y ago
My HP laptop lasts 2 hours running linux. My macbook air m4 lasts 12 hours.
- shaky-carrousel 1y ago
  Your MacBook air has a team behind it ensuring it runs as efficiently as possible. Your HP laptop running linux has... you.
  - cranberryturkey 1y ago
    But I'm a good team.
- type0 1y ago
  apples to oranges
- fossman 1y ago
  Well, if enough of us paid Apple level prices to Linux vendors, we would have Apple level Linux laptops and phones eventually. Not fair to pay next to nothing and then compare Linux to Apple.
numpad0 1y ago
N hours of actual use, in isolation, is just the matter of calculating average power draw[W] by runtime[hr] and buying the battery with Wh figures comfortably bigger than that. e.g. your device consumed 1 Watt on average, you wanted 8 hour runtime, then you need a battery with 8 Watt-hours, or 2,162.162162162162 mAh at 3.7V of capacity, before factoring in buffers of various kinds. But it's also roughly the datasheet nominal capacity of a single 18650 cell. You don't worry about daily battery life on mainstream mobile devices and you can fall asleep with YouTube playing and it's still playing when you wake up because manufacturers know consumers do that and optimize the phone to make that work. They probably reduce display brightness, cut powers to mics and P cores, ask 3M to make the pouch films 1% thinner so battery could be few more percent bigger inside, fudge battery gauges so you would be nudged correctly to have enough charge before you fall asleep, the list goes as far as your imagination could possibly go. The fact that same behaviors don't happen on Linux devices, even with something like four of fresh 18650s, means the list ends before it begins. They probably don't do ANY power profiling AT ALL. I'm sure they don't do ANY environmental testing, either. Would I accept that as a consumer? No. Would I if I was the manufacturer? ...
sharperguy 1y ago
This is a big part of why Android was developed in the first place. The operating system and application architecture that makes sense on desktop just doesn't make sense on mobile. Despite the many problems Google's restrictive APIs which you are forced to use can cause for developers, they are also highly optimized for power usage.
- blueflow 1y ago
  Android is also Linux, so Linux isn't the problem - its the userspace. In terms of wakeups, the systemd/dbus desktop architecture is the worst.
  - jeroenhd 1y ago
    UBports (the maintained fork of the dead Ubuntu Touch project) runs fine with systemd/upstart/wayland. Hell, my watch runs Tizen and that's running a bog standard Wayland + PulseAudio + systemd setup: https://docs.tizen.org/platform/porting/system/#systemd https://docs.tizen.org/platform/porting/system/#systemd With the right kernel drivers, configuration, and tweaks, with a well-configured userland on top of that, you can run the "normal" Linux stack in a mobile device. Getting applications to conform with an API that won't let them drain the battery in the background to make sure notifications don't arrive two seconds too late is much harder. Desktop applications don't really like being suspended/resumed the way mobile applications do.
    - rolandog 1y ago
      That's quite interesting. How would one go about making one's app or services suspend/resume friendly? Are there well-known good practices?... Or, do they need to be rediscovered as they are perhaps proprietary know-how?
      - gf000 1y ago
        By making a soft and then a hard suspend the reality they have to abide by, or otherwise they are killed and users will think they are broken apps. Mobile apps just had to "grow up" in this environment, plus they have proper APIs for this two-way communication between OS and the app. Android will just ask the app to save its state and then simply unload it from memory (after a while) - but this also makes perfect sense for the desktop scene, you also want to improve energy efficiency there. A spreadsheet app doesn't have to continuously run when it's in the background. You just have to add proper APIs and permissions so that apps can optionally ask for extra background work.
nicman23 1y ago
yeah there are lots of tablets and 2-1 with amd chips that can do 8 hours on light usage.
poetaster 1y ago
With my, atypical maybe?, use, I get up to 2 days on a 4KmA battery (Gigaset GS5, SailfishOs). Sometimes I'm down to 1 day if I do social media scrolling.
fsflover 1y ago
Did you know that you can replace the battery in Librem 5 and Pinephone on the go?
- fossman 1y ago
  They are just like tiny laptops, so you can certainly shutdown and swap the battery.
  - fsflover 1y ago
    With Librem 5, you can even swap the battery without shutting down the phone if it's connected to the power.
Katzenmann 1y ago
Hi. I have a Google Pixel 3a running PostmarketOS https://postmarketos.org/ https://postmarketos.org/ and it holds up pretty well. My phone lost 20% today with light usage and will maybe lose 60% if I scroll social media a lot. I was actually surprised it is this good. I reinstalled recently and before the reinstall I had much worse battery life (Maybe 8 hours with normal usage). I think it was because of Syncthing running in the background. It is also possible to use s2idle suspend which will improve the battery life even more but you will not be able to receive calls during suspend (though that may also be fixed in the future)

maheart 1y ago

>Is there a single Linux phone/tablet that can last an 8 hour day of actual use? What's "actual use"? Furi FLX1 has the best battery life I've seen on a Linux phone. Idling, it last 3+ days. I'm sure it could survive 1 whole day of "actual use". I also think almost any (official) SailfishOS device would last a day of actual use.

nextos 1y ago
SailfishOS is quite efficient. On Sony devices, I experienced maybe 15% extra battery life compared to stock Android, which is quite good given that Sony ROMs are excellent. Sony is known for their Sony Open Devices Program.
- ux266478 1y ago
  I genuinely think if Sony offered a Linux phone and didn't lock it down too bad, they could serve as the catalyst for the whole market. I don't think I would trust any other company at this point to execute the platonic "Linux phone" we need. The uncompromising vision on building a fantastic product for the technically minded make them an obvious choice.
  - j45 1y ago
    Sony tries out so many different types of products too across their entire lineup. They have made some memorable handhelds over the years, even their eink readers were special.
    - gloxkiqcza 1y ago
      They also pulled a bait-and-switch with Linux on PS3...
      - j45 1y ago
        No doubt. I was referring more to their variety of electronics in so many areas.
    - nextos 1y ago
      True. Sony is a conglomerate, which explains their business strategy. Lots of divisions and groups operate independently and have little coordination.
  - pabs3 1y ago
    I get the impression they shut it down, but Sony had/have the Xperia Open Devices program. They were close to having their devices running purely on the mainline Linux kernel: https://developer.sony.com/open-source https://developer.sony.com/open-source
bobthecowboy 1y ago
I've been considering this as my Android exit plan (as part of a slow rolling de-googling effort, even before the recent "sideloading" news). Are you using it as a daily driver? I'm sort of surprised it doesn't get brought up more.
- maheart 1y ago
  Yes, I used SailfishOS as a daily driver since ~2014 until last year when I moved to the Furi FLX1. The FLX1 has been my daily driver since. SailfishOS is much more polished, but it's not fully FOSS, and it follows upstream much less closely. FLX1 is basically in-sync with Debian testing, with the exception of kernel.
  - cenamus 1y ago
    Are you able to run android apps aswell? Without whatsapp you're pretty much locked out from most communication around here...
    - kuuchuu 1y ago
      According to their FAQ (https://furilabs.com/faq/ https://furilabs.com/faq/), yes > FuriOS allows for running apps inside a container running Android codenamed Andromeda. This container has complete integration with the host and makes all Android applications work like native applications
    - maheart 1y ago
      Yes, both (official) SailfishOS and FLX1 offer decent/good Android app support. Not every app will work, but when I have needed Android (rarely, for basic stuff), the applications have worked.
  - poetaster 1y ago
    Interesting. I had a poke at postmarket, which wasn't ready in comparison with SFOS. Would you say the FLX1 is at better stage in development than postmarket?
ttkari 1y ago
I have a Sony Xperia 10 III with SailfishOS and it easily does 48 hours on a charge when I'm not doing a lot of screen time. Also on days when I use it for tracking / navigation on 6-8 hour bicycle rides it easily lasts for the entire day and then some. I think this is not bad for a device that has been in daily use for almost three years and still has the original battery. I'm running a couple of messenger clients and a web browser (Fennec under Android App Support as the native one is sadly a bit behind the times currently) all the time. The only thing I've noticed to eat a ton of battery is having wifi enabled when outside the range of my own networks, it seems the scanning the phone does in the background to look for known wifi networks is not energy efficient at all.
- poetaster 1y ago
  I also have this setup and SFos on Gigaset GS5. Similar battery performance. I did a roadtrip last week with navigation (starting with about 90% battery) and after 5&1/2 hours navigation was down to 65% or therabouts. Works for me. And, yes, I often turn off wifi. I never go over my Data limits and 4G/5G is much more efficient for some reason.
shaky-carrousel 1y ago
Why isn't there more information about Furi FLX1 in the internet? Looks like a nice phone.

cranberryturkey 1y ago

My HP laptop lasts 2 hours running linux. My macbook air m4 lasts 12 hours.

shaky-carrousel 1y ago
Your MacBook air has a team behind it ensuring it runs as efficiently as possible. Your HP laptop running linux has... you.
- cranberryturkey 1y ago
  But I'm a good team.
type0 1y ago
apples to oranges
fossman 1y ago
Well, if enough of us paid Apple level prices to Linux vendors, we would have Apple level Linux laptops and phones eventually. Not fair to pay next to nothing and then compare Linux to Apple.

numpad0 1y ago

N hours of actual use, in isolation, is just the matter of calculating average power draw[W] by runtime[hr] and buying the battery with Wh figures comfortably bigger than that. e.g. your device consumed 1 Watt on average, you wanted 8 hour runtime, then you need a battery with 8 Watt-hours, or 2,162.162162162162 mAh at 3.7V of capacity, before factoring in buffers of various kinds. But it's also roughly the datasheet nominal capacity of a single 18650 cell. You don't worry about daily battery life on mainstream mobile devices and you can fall asleep with YouTube playing and it's still playing when you wake up because manufacturers know consumers do that and optimize the phone to make that work. They probably reduce display brightness, cut powers to mics and P cores, ask 3M to make the pouch films 1% thinner so battery could be few more percent bigger inside, fudge battery gauges so you would be nudged correctly to have enough charge before you fall asleep, the list goes as far as your imagination could possibly go. The fact that same behaviors don't happen on Linux devices, even with something like four of fresh 18650s, means the list ends before it begins. They probably don't do ANY power profiling AT ALL. I'm sure they don't do ANY environmental testing, either. Would I accept that as a consumer? No. Would I if I was the manufacturer? ...

sharperguy 1y ago

This is a big part of why Android was developed in the first place. The operating system and application architecture that makes sense on desktop just doesn't make sense on mobile. Despite the many problems Google's restrictive APIs which you are forced to use can cause for developers, they are also highly optimized for power usage.

blueflow 1y ago
Android is also Linux, so Linux isn't the problem - its the userspace. In terms of wakeups, the systemd/dbus desktop architecture is the worst.
- jeroenhd 1y ago
  UBports (the maintained fork of the dead Ubuntu Touch project) runs fine with systemd/upstart/wayland. Hell, my watch runs Tizen and that's running a bog standard Wayland + PulseAudio + systemd setup: https://docs.tizen.org/platform/porting/system/#systemd https://docs.tizen.org/platform/porting/system/#systemd With the right kernel drivers, configuration, and tweaks, with a well-configured userland on top of that, you can run the "normal" Linux stack in a mobile device. Getting applications to conform with an API that won't let them drain the battery in the background to make sure notifications don't arrive two seconds too late is much harder. Desktop applications don't really like being suspended/resumed the way mobile applications do.
  - rolandog 1y ago
    That's quite interesting. How would one go about making one's app or services suspend/resume friendly? Are there well-known good practices?... Or, do they need to be rediscovered as they are perhaps proprietary know-how?
    - gf000 1y ago
      By making a soft and then a hard suspend the reality they have to abide by, or otherwise they are killed and users will think they are broken apps. Mobile apps just had to "grow up" in this environment, plus they have proper APIs for this two-way communication between OS and the app. Android will just ask the app to save its state and then simply unload it from memory (after a while) - but this also makes perfect sense for the desktop scene, you also want to improve energy efficiency there. A spreadsheet app doesn't have to continuously run when it's in the background. You just have to add proper APIs and permissions so that apps can optionally ask for extra background work.

nicman23 1y ago

yeah there are lots of tablets and 2-1 with amd chips that can do 8 hours on light usage.

poetaster 1y ago

With my, atypical maybe?, use, I get up to 2 days on a 4KmA battery (Gigaset GS5, SailfishOs). Sometimes I'm down to 1 day if I do social media scrolling.

fsflover 1y ago

Did you know that you can replace the battery in Librem 5 and Pinephone on the go?

fossman 1y ago
They are just like tiny laptops, so you can certainly shutdown and swap the battery.
- fsflover 1y ago
  With Librem 5, you can even swap the battery without shutting down the phone if it's connected to the power.

Katzenmann 1y ago

Hi. I have a Google Pixel 3a running PostmarketOS https://postmarketos.org/ https://postmarketos.org/ and it holds up pretty well. My phone lost 20% today with light usage and will maybe lose 60% if I scroll social media a lot. I was actually surprised it is this good. I reinstalled recently and before the reinstall I had much worse battery life (Maybe 8 hours with normal usage). I think it was because of Syncthing running in the background. It is also possible to use s2idle suspend which will improve the battery life even more but you will not be able to receive calls during suspend (though that may also be fixed in the future)