8 ms·

One of my favorite genres of non-fiction is when people who claim they value independence and off-griddyness are forced to be independently off-grid. "No no we

One of my favorite genres of non-fiction is when people who claim they value independence and off-griddyness are forced to be independently off-grid. "No no we meant off-grid in every aspect save one!" I know these people, half my family is these people. I've listened to them rail against the man for decades and decades and decades. When you tell them that the invisible hands of the free market will gladly sell them the bootstraps they require, they get mighty angry.

hollywood_court 1y ago
Reminds me of people who hate 'socialism' but spend their entire lives in the military.
- petralithic 1y ago
  Do workers in the military control their means of production? If not, there's no relation to socialism.
  - lokar 1y ago
    In modern US politics, "socialism" is the Government giving people anything for free.
    - vondur 1y ago
      That still doesn't make sense, the Government is paying people to be in the military.
      - asacrowflies 1y ago
        You have to very dense or bordering on disingenuous to not see the subsidized healthcare, subsidized childcare and spouses, subsidized moving costs, etc etc etc as "socialism" in the colloquial sense..... You can't get even 10% those benefits in the private sector without the same chuds screeching about communism.
        Gud 1y ago
        Not at all, those are just perks of the job, not socialism in any sense.
        petralithic 1y ago
        Benefits like that have nothing to do with socialism or communism.
        asacrowflies 1y ago
        Keyword you seem to have missed is "colloquial". Yes I know they don't. But 99% of the time those are the type of programs being railed against by free market evangelist.... But in reality....The USA mic is the closest thing to actual meaning of socialism the USA has ever tried.
        petralithic 1y ago
        Colloquial usage of the word is simply incorrect. I don't see how the US is the closest when nowhere in its history have workers significantly controlled the means of their own production. It simply hasn't happened around the world and I doubt it ever will.
        Jensson 1y ago
        You get those benefits in many programmer jobs, its just things companies provide since it attracts people to the job.
      - lokar 1y ago
        My point was really that "socialism" (in common use, especially on the libertarian right) is not really tethered to any historical definition. It's a political term to attach to things you don't like.
    - petralithic 1y ago
      Sure, however the people using that word are simply incorrect.
belter 1y ago
You will see the same with "stable-coins" and Wall Street move to Crypto...
- greenavocado 1y ago
  That's just another profit making scam masquerading as legitimate business activity
  - OutOfHere 1y ago
    A dismissal without a valid logical reason is in turn dismissable.
thrance 1y ago
It's a fantasy, an aesthetic. There is no living off-grid when you depend on a giant gas-guzzling truck with a thousand moving parts for your every needs.
- darth_avocado 1y ago
  Off the grid folks are cosplaying the Amish lifestyle
  - greenavocado 1y ago
    The Amish do not live off grid generally speaking
- 15155 1y ago
  How about an electric vehicle, a few dozen kW of solar, and a drilled well?
  - pavel_lishin 1y ago
    Slightly better, but how do you get parts to repair your vehicle or anything else? There's virtually no such thing as "off-grid", no such thing as a human being who lives totally unreliant on people around them in the modern age, unless you can carry everything you own in both hands, and can survive with nothing else. And there's damn few people out there living like that.
    - hdgvhicv 1y ago
      “No man is an island”
  - vel0city 1y ago
    EVs will still need some maintenance. Are you planning on making your own tires?
  - 0manrho 1y ago
    > How about an electric vehicle, a few dozen kW of solar, and a drilled well? It's the same issue, you're still dependent on outside resources (especially if we're being realistic and understand that everything will break and need repaired/maintenance/replacement eventually), you're just switching which resources you're dependent on.
pavel_lishin 1y ago
But they have been buying the bootstraps. They were buying water from the town, and they were perfectly aware that it wasn't something the town was obligated to provide. The problem seems to be that the townsfolk want to water their lawn: > “These men were brought in because I had put them on a water restriction schedule,” Pacheco said in an interview. “They are upset they can’t water their lawns while people can’t have water to actually live.” They're not completely cut off; they just have to significantly further to purchase their water, and some of them do: > Some are driving two hours to Pueblo to buy water. Many have been getting water in the town of Blanca, where officials offered — only as an emergency solution until the end of August — to let people fill up water tanks from a hose connected to a fire hydrant. I don't think this is a situation where we're laughing at people who are in the Find Out phase.
- mothballed 1y ago
  Many people haul water in Colorado because the bootstrapping method of drilling your own well is now heavily restricted, and of course the same people stopping you from drilling the well (government) is happy to monopolize and sell you the water. Meanwhile you can use percussion drilling to drill a well of virtually arbitrary depth, at very little cost, as was done by the Chinese for thousands of years to depths well below 500ft with not much more than bamboo and rocks.
potato3732842 1y ago
You are projecting an ideology onto these people for no reason other than to satisfy your own bias and/or earn a few cheap upvotes from likeminded readers. 99.9% of these people are not living "off grid" for any particular ideological reason. They are living off grid because where they live is simply too dispersed and/or poor for there to be a grid. They've either always lived this way or adapted when they moved there. Buyer: "but if it's off grid where do I get water" Realtor: "there's services you pay for that truck it in and fill your tank, just like propane or heating oil" Buyer:"oh, ok"
- VWWHFSfQ 1y ago
  > Debi and John Marks moved from Florida to build their dream home in the high desert of Costilla County. They bought property in the ranches two years ago with plans to build a retirement home and live off the grid among the pines ... > “We wanted to be as independent as possible, and so we searched all over the state for property that would fit our needs, and this fit the bill,” Debi Marks said. ... > Amanda Ellis bought a house in Costilla County five years ago to live off the grid. These are people specifically moving to this unincorporated county in order to live "off the grid". This sounds ideological to me.
  - ramesh31 1y ago
    >These are people specifically moving to this unincorporated county in order to live "off the grid". This sounds ideological to me. Realtors out there are selling sandcastles in the sky to flatlanders who don't know any better. The property they are buying is parceled out ranch land that went bust generations ago for the same reasons. These aren't "prepper" types so much as folks who want the Colorado high-country lifestyle when they can't actually afford it.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
  - ryandrake 1y ago
    I think a lot of people are just cosplaying as Little House On The Prairie and think they're independent and "off grid" because they don't have monthly utility bills. Except they're buying their propane and buying their water, not to mention their clothes and everything else. So they're actually on-grid, but just with extra steps.
energy123 1y ago
Look who doesn't like solar power, the most pro-independence energy source. It's a solution that decouples you from everyone for a good 20 years.
- OutOfHere 1y ago
  Yes, solar, with atmospheric water generators.
pkulak 1y ago
In the words of the immortal Lebowski, they're more off-grid than you, Dude.
flovec 1y ago
I find this quite cynical, but I also can't speak to half of your family, ha! I am one of the folks who, in my youth, purchased land in between Fort Garland and San Luis, with dreams of off-grid living. I succeeded, mostly, but not without many hiccups - the locals being one of them. For me, "off-grid" was about _control_: control over my mortgage (none!), bills (no monthly subscriptions to privatized power companies generating profit!), and, well, life in general. I'd say the general theme wasn't so much about "sticking it to the man" (what's to stick and who?) or "being self reliant" (impossible), but about fighting classism _to some degree_ via a veritable case of civil disobedience. To my understanding, it is basically illegal OR extremely difficult to find a living situation where someone else (bank, etc.) isn't profiting off folks, and I find that, well, avarice. But you could find a situation like that out in the valley, because land was cheap and you could "get away" with a lot out there, which basically is just another way of saying folks could _afford_ to be poor. America is entrenched in classism, and everywhere I look someone with less money getting fucked. And this is ESPECIALLY true when it comes to building code enforcement: wealthy folks pay the same amount as poor folks for things like permits, et. al. ($$), code means nothing when you can afford to hire engineers to prove its safe, pay for costly zoning variations, etc. So as harsh as the valley was in climate, it was basically an oasis of sorts to younger me for all those reasons. All that to say: there are other genres of fiction worth exploring :)
theshrike79 1y ago
I'm one of those off grid people, but I'm not looking for 100% off grid. What I want is the equivalent of an UPS, but for everything. If the municipal power grid, water and sewage go down. I want to be able to live mostly like before. If there's a disruption in the logistics chain for the grocery store for any reason, I can live with what I have and can grow for a week or two in relative comfort, a month would suck. If the wired internet connection goes down, I want to have a wireless option that automatically takes over.

hollywood_court 1y ago

Reminds me of people who hate 'socialism' but spend their entire lives in the military.

petralithic 1y ago
Do workers in the military control their means of production? If not, there's no relation to socialism.
- lokar 1y ago
  In modern US politics, "socialism" is the Government giving people anything for free.
  - vondur 1y ago
    That still doesn't make sense, the Government is paying people to be in the military.
    - asacrowflies 1y ago
      You have to very dense or bordering on disingenuous to not see the subsidized healthcare, subsidized childcare and spouses, subsidized moving costs, etc etc etc as "socialism" in the colloquial sense..... You can't get even 10% those benefits in the private sector without the same chuds screeching about communism.
      - Gud 1y ago
        Not at all, those are just perks of the job, not socialism in any sense.
      - petralithic 1y ago
        Benefits like that have nothing to do with socialism or communism.
        asacrowflies 1y ago
        Keyword you seem to have missed is "colloquial". Yes I know they don't. But 99% of the time those are the type of programs being railed against by free market evangelist.... But in reality....The USA mic is the closest thing to actual meaning of socialism the USA has ever tried.
        petralithic 1y ago
        Colloquial usage of the word is simply incorrect. I don't see how the US is the closest when nowhere in its history have workers significantly controlled the means of their own production. It simply hasn't happened around the world and I doubt it ever will.
      - Jensson 1y ago
        You get those benefits in many programmer jobs, its just things companies provide since it attracts people to the job.
    - lokar 1y ago
      My point was really that "socialism" (in common use, especially on the libertarian right) is not really tethered to any historical definition. It's a political term to attach to things you don't like.
  - petralithic 1y ago
    Sure, however the people using that word are simply incorrect.

belter 1y ago

You will see the same with "stable-coins" and Wall Street move to Crypto...

greenavocado 1y ago
That's just another profit making scam masquerading as legitimate business activity
- OutOfHere 1y ago
  A dismissal without a valid logical reason is in turn dismissable.

thrance 1y ago

It's a fantasy, an aesthetic. There is no living off-grid when you depend on a giant gas-guzzling truck with a thousand moving parts for your every needs.

darth_avocado 1y ago
Off the grid folks are cosplaying the Amish lifestyle
- greenavocado 1y ago
  The Amish do not live off grid generally speaking
15155 1y ago
How about an electric vehicle, a few dozen kW of solar, and a drilled well?
- pavel_lishin 1y ago
  Slightly better, but how do you get parts to repair your vehicle or anything else? There's virtually no such thing as "off-grid", no such thing as a human being who lives totally unreliant on people around them in the modern age, unless you can carry everything you own in both hands, and can survive with nothing else. And there's damn few people out there living like that.
  - hdgvhicv 1y ago
    “No man is an island”
- vel0city 1y ago
  EVs will still need some maintenance. Are you planning on making your own tires?
- 0manrho 1y ago
  > How about an electric vehicle, a few dozen kW of solar, and a drilled well? It's the same issue, you're still dependent on outside resources (especially if we're being realistic and understand that everything will break and need repaired/maintenance/replacement eventually), you're just switching which resources you're dependent on.

pavel_lishin 1y ago

But they have been buying the bootstraps. They were buying water from the town, and they were perfectly aware that it wasn't something the town was obligated to provide. The problem seems to be that the townsfolk want to water their lawn: > “These men were brought in because I had put them on a water restriction schedule,” Pacheco said in an interview. “They are upset they can’t water their lawns while people can’t have water to actually live.” They're not completely cut off; they just have to significantly further to purchase their water, and some of them do: > Some are driving two hours to Pueblo to buy water. Many have been getting water in the town of Blanca, where officials offered — only as an emergency solution until the end of August — to let people fill up water tanks from a hose connected to a fire hydrant. I don't think this is a situation where we're laughing at people who are in the Find Out phase.

mothballed 1y ago
Many people haul water in Colorado because the bootstrapping method of drilling your own well is now heavily restricted, and of course the same people stopping you from drilling the well (government) is happy to monopolize and sell you the water. Meanwhile you can use percussion drilling to drill a well of virtually arbitrary depth, at very little cost, as was done by the Chinese for thousands of years to depths well below 500ft with not much more than bamboo and rocks.

potato3732842 1y ago

You are projecting an ideology onto these people for no reason other than to satisfy your own bias and/or earn a few cheap upvotes from likeminded readers. 99.9% of these people are not living "off grid" for any particular ideological reason. They are living off grid because where they live is simply too dispersed and/or poor for there to be a grid. They've either always lived this way or adapted when they moved there. Buyer: "but if it's off grid where do I get water" Realtor: "there's services you pay for that truck it in and fill your tank, just like propane or heating oil" Buyer:"oh, ok"

VWWHFSfQ 1y ago
> Debi and John Marks moved from Florida to build their dream home in the high desert of Costilla County. They bought property in the ranches two years ago with plans to build a retirement home and live off the grid among the pines ... > “We wanted to be as independent as possible, and so we searched all over the state for property that would fit our needs, and this fit the bill,” Debi Marks said. ... > Amanda Ellis bought a house in Costilla County five years ago to live off the grid. These are people specifically moving to this unincorporated county in order to live "off the grid". This sounds ideological to me.
- ramesh31 1y ago
  >These are people specifically moving to this unincorporated county in order to live "off the grid". This sounds ideological to me. Realtors out there are selling sandcastles in the sky to flatlanders who don't know any better. The property they are buying is parceled out ranch land that went bust generations ago for the same reasons. These aren't "prepper" types so much as folks who want the Colorado high-country lifestyle when they can't actually afford it.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
- ryandrake 1y ago
  I think a lot of people are just cosplaying as Little House On The Prairie and think they're independent and "off grid" because they don't have monthly utility bills. Except they're buying their propane and buying their water, not to mention their clothes and everything else. So they're actually on-grid, but just with extra steps.

energy123 1y ago

Look who doesn't like solar power, the most pro-independence energy source. It's a solution that decouples you from everyone for a good 20 years.

OutOfHere 1y ago
Yes, solar, with atmospheric water generators.

pkulak 1y ago

In the words of the immortal Lebowski, they're more off-grid than you, Dude.

flovec 1y ago

I find this quite cynical, but I also can't speak to half of your family, ha! I am one of the folks who, in my youth, purchased land in between Fort Garland and San Luis, with dreams of off-grid living. I succeeded, mostly, but not without many hiccups - the locals being one of them. For me, "off-grid" was about _control_: control over my mortgage (none!), bills (no monthly subscriptions to privatized power companies generating profit!), and, well, life in general. I'd say the general theme wasn't so much about "sticking it to the man" (what's to stick and who?) or "being self reliant" (impossible), but about fighting classism _to some degree_ via a veritable case of civil disobedience. To my understanding, it is basically illegal OR extremely difficult to find a living situation where someone else (bank, etc.) isn't profiting off folks, and I find that, well, avarice. But you could find a situation like that out in the valley, because land was cheap and you could "get away" with a lot out there, which basically is just another way of saying folks could _afford_ to be poor. America is entrenched in classism, and everywhere I look someone with less money getting fucked. And this is ESPECIALLY true when it comes to building code enforcement: wealthy folks pay the same amount as poor folks for things like permits, et. al. ($$), code means nothing when you can afford to hire engineers to prove its safe, pay for costly zoning variations, etc. So as harsh as the valley was in climate, it was basically an oasis of sorts to younger me for all those reasons. All that to say: there are other genres of fiction worth exploring :)

theshrike79 1y ago

I'm one of those off grid people, but I'm not looking for 100% off grid. What I want is the equivalent of an UPS, but for everything. If the municipal power grid, water and sewage go down. I want to be able to live mostly like before. If there's a disruption in the logistics chain for the grocery store for any reason, I can live with what I have and can grow for a week or two in relative comfort, a month would suck. If the wired internet connection goes down, I want to have a wireless option that automatically takes over.