6 ms·

This ends science in the United States. You can't really enroll graduate students for a 5 year PHD project if their funding can be pulled at a moment's notice

This ends science in the United States. You can't really enroll graduate students for a 5 year PHD project if their funding can be pulled at a moment's notice like this.

0xy 1y ago
[flagged]
- SubiculumCode 1y ago
  Trash.
- birn559 1y ago
  Not sure how to read it. Do you believe covid-19 virus came from an US (funded) lab? I have never heard of that theory.
russellbeattie 1y ago
This year is definitely the beginning of the end for American scientific leadership. The damage being done is incalculable. The best and brightest simply aren't going to want to come to the U.S. for an uncertain future where they'll be harassed at the airport every trip and then defunded or deported at any time for "political" reasons (a.k.a. racism, bigotry, religion, ignorance and anti-intellectualism). Amazingly, we're only 200 days into this administration. We have 3 years, 5 months and 12 days left, assuming we still have free and fair elections in 2028. For the next several years, the administration is going to continue to dismantle our country's foundations brick by brick, enabled by Congress and SCOTUS. The attack on immigrants is in full swing, but the total takeover of science, public education, universities and mass media is actually just beginning.
- msgodel 1y ago
  Whether it's real or just poor communication a lot of the country felt like the scientific institutions had been weaponized against them. Maybe the constituents of those institutions even believed either making themselves an enemy of the public or creating PR indicating they were was moral but the practical reality of public institutions is that they must have the trust of the public or they will come to an end. Hopefully people remember this for next time.
  - watwut 1y ago
    > Whether it's real or just poor communication Nah, there was nothing "poor communication" about it. It was very well done bad faith communication from bad actors. It was intentional lies. This was not a fault of communication of these institutions. They can not match the lies machine from well founded and motivated political groups. And that is about it.
    - SauciestGNU 1y ago
      Don't forget the resentment the religious hold toward science over things like evolution and the big bang that are inconsistent with their superstitions. There's been a concerted effort by evangelical Christianity to undermine the place of science in our society, probably because when religion loses its explanatory power over the wondrous things we see in the world people turn toward the alternatives, like evidence-based explanations.
  - thisisit 1y ago
    Really? Is that why Project Warp Speed was both an achievement for Trump and at the same time vaccines were produced too fast and hence unreliable? That is at the same institutions were a friend, when it fit the narrative and enemy, when it didn't fit the narrative. People who say - "Don't trust the government, they make terrible decisions" are now saying "Trust the government". What a turn around. Hopefully people who have voted for this and defending this remember this as the beginning of the end of American exceptionalism. It's certainly not happening any time soon. Maybe decades later but these things will be remembered in the same way as Mccarthyism.
    - yencabulator 1y ago
      > beginning of the end of American exceptionalism American exceptionalism has always been a weird delusion, I don't see that ending. USA not being a market leader in <whatever>, now that can end and it's starting to happen for sure.
  - mindslight 1y ago
    It must be nice to be in Trumpist lala land, where it's always someone else's fault. Trust of our institutions, scientific and other, had been deliberately destroyed by anti-intellectual political hacks over the past few decades. Some from appealing to regressive religious fundamentalism, but much just shameless ignorant grandstanding of painting the complex world as unfair. And it's mostly those same hacks who are now supporting the wanton burning of our societal institutions while continuing to whitewash it as "conservatism". Sorry, the fault here lays entirely with the fascists - most especially with the people supporting them who should have known better.
- ethbr1 1y ago
  > We have 3 years, 5 months and 12 days left The midterms are in 2026. A swapped House (and/or Senate, but less likely) would drastically shift power.
  - SauciestGNU 1y ago
    Hence the push for a mid-decade census (likely illegal) and revised fascist-friendly electoral maps. Can't risk popular sovereignty overruling Nazi priorities.
  - russellbeattie 1y ago
    > "...would drastically shift power." What exactly do you think will change? The administration is already ignoring the law with impunity. Unless there's a big enough swing so that impeachment and conviction is a reality, Congress will have essentially zero impact. Around 40% of the country still supports the president unconditionally. They are truly ecstatic with what's happened so far. The other 60% are being gerrymandered so their majority status is inconsequential. If Republicans do lose the House, it'll most likely be by a small margin, and the current Congress will rush through a bunch of laws to be signed that will make the next one as useless as possible. And even if there was in fact a huge swing allowing Congress to try and stop the White House's wrecking ball, the amount of damage between now and January 2027 will be monumental and irreversible.
    - ethbr1 1y ago
      I know it's vogue to construct a view in which depression and inaction are the only logical conclusions, but that ain't our reality. > The administration is already ignoring the law with impunity Can you provide an example where they've ignored a Supreme Court ruling? And the histrionics around this are uniquely relative to modern norms. Look up the shenanigans around Marbury v Madison https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marbury_v._Madison#Background https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marbury_v._Madison#Backgroun... Joisting for power between federal branches (and with states, historically) has been a constant in American democracy more often (most of its history) than not (1970s+). > Around 40% of the country still supports the president unconditionally Yes, such is the danger of personality cults in democracies. > The other 60% are being gerrymandered so their majority status is inconsequential. Gerrymandering has always been a finger on the scales of elections, and will continue to be, until such time as Congress puts a stop to it (though debatable they have the power). https://gerrymander.princeton.edu/ https://gerrymander.princeton.edu/ > the amount of damage between now and January 2027 will be monumental and irreversible. I imagine FDR's ghost is spinning in his grave, with things to say about Hoover.
- yibg 1y ago
  Personally I'm not very confident even in the next free and fair election things will change materially. Trump is the public face but the reason he's in office and also has control of congress is because Americans voted that way. It's not very clear that if elections were held tomorrow, that the result would go any different.
- jrs235 1y ago
  But but but American Exceptionalism! Americans are the best and brightest! The rest of the world can't compete! /s Those doing and supporting what's happening a) care only about power, b) honestly think they and America is superior, c) both and d) think this time is different assuming they are educated and know history.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
themafia 1y ago
I genuinely don't understand this. This is due to my lack of experience in University since I never went, and my experience with laboratories, since I've only ever been in one, much to the annoyance of my best friends girlfriend at the time, who was studying Chinook and their spawning behavior. My understanding is the grants you're talking about are generally for small student salaries as they work on a given project simultaneously with their continued education. Is there not another way to fund these projects? Is there not a better way to engage students into these projects? I don't recall most students having a wide array of choices when it comes to taking on these opportunities. Is this not a chance to improve a rather ancient and clumsy system?
- pyrale 1y ago
  > Is this not a chance to improve a rather ancient and clumsy system? I seriously doubt that there is any will to improve the system. > My understanding is the grants you're talking about are generally for small student salaries as they work on a given project simultaneously with their continued education. Grants cover a much larger part of the work at labs. Basically, a grant could be paying anything except tenured salaries and administrative costs.
- noelwelsh 1y ago
  Grants are usually for projects. Projects may include a portion for postgraduate students, but also pay a lot of other things such as running costs for a lab, travel, conference fees, etc. The costs of running, say, a biology lab are very high (lots of equipment, need to employ technicians as well).
WillPostForFood 1y ago
This ends science in the United States. Probably not. Grants were always under political control, right? This is just shifting political control from one part of a government agency to another part of the government agency.
- noelwelsh 1y ago
  The key phrase in the article is "political appointee". Previously, approval was by government employees who had expertise in the given field.
- jjk166 1y ago
  > Individual grants will also require clearance from a political appointee and "must, where applicable, demonstrably advance the President’s policy priorities." > The order also instructs agencies to formalize the ability to cancel previously awarded grants at any time if they're considered to "no longer advance agency priorities."
- ocschwar 1y ago
  Until now, once you got a grant, you could count on it. Now? One of your grad students says something a little too on the nose on Bsky, and your lab gets shut down.
- tremon 1y ago
  Grants were always under political control, right? Sure. In the same vein, you have always been at war with Eurasia.
FredPret 1y ago
To play devil's advocate: - science funding is controlled by the state (and thus politics) in many leading countries, especially China. Doesn't seem to hold them back - the US pays people vastly more than other countries, and will continue to have the ability to fund expensive research more than others. Maybe it will regain the political will to do so in coming years You're right that uncertainty is deadly to investment, and signing up for 5 years of a PhD is certainly an investment. But it's hard to see this turn into an actual brain drain, if only for lack of a better place to go.
- redserk 1y ago
  In a completely isolated bubble I’d be inclined to agree that scientific research might not do so badly, but the current set of politics completely rejects generally-accepted scientific norms. After all, why bother doing research when the guy ultimately responsible for choosing your funding will take a sharpie to any data you collect if it looks bad?
Yizahi 1y ago
This ends USA, full stop. Not this particular executive order, but his orders in general. It's been half a year and that orange turd has completely overtaken USA legislative branch with this "economic emergency", while bobbleheads in the Congress just signed it away voluntarily. And now he is taking preliminary shots at the judicial branch, trying to eradicate judges who aren't bending the knee. All the while testing through his minions if it would be possible to tear down constitution too and remain in power permanently.
- sizzle 1y ago
  What can we do about it?
  - doublerabbit 1y ago
    General Strike. If everyone tomorrow just stopped working around the world, that would paint a pretty picture.
    - BobaFloutist 1y ago
      "If everyone just" isn't ever a real solution.
    - Yizahi 1y ago
      Strike in the Washington DC where people would not go home in the evening. Put up tents, tires, pavement and keep striking until it works. Also pick up 1 single most important item. Not Epstein, however satisfying that is to throw at MAGA their own comments. I think so called "economic emergency" which in completely unconstitutional should be such a topic and strike should continue until it is repelled. Secondary topic I think should be unconstitutional measure by the Congress, which they adopted in spring and which essentially blocks congressmen from voting on this so called "emergency". That shit how whole 2025 year is a single day, or whatever they have invented. That is the only only way to stop dictatorship while it is still possible.
- mathiaspoint 1y ago
derangedHorse 1y ago
Most of my friends got grants from industry. Relying on federal grants to build up a generation of grad students in any field seems like a recipe for disaster. This change might actually bring a higher standard of tax-payer funded research if it enables the public to have faster feedback mechanisms when research stagnates or is misaligned with the public interest.

This ends science in the United States. You can't really enroll graduate students for a 5 year PHD project if their funding can be pulled at a moment's notice like this.

0xy 1y ago

[flagged]

SubiculumCode 1y ago
Trash.
birn559 1y ago
Not sure how to read it. Do you believe covid-19 virus came from an US (funded) lab? I have never heard of that theory.

russellbeattie 1y ago

This year is definitely the beginning of the end for American scientific leadership. The damage being done is incalculable. The best and brightest simply aren't going to want to come to the U.S. for an uncertain future where they'll be harassed at the airport every trip and then defunded or deported at any time for "political" reasons (a.k.a. racism, bigotry, religion, ignorance and anti-intellectualism). Amazingly, we're only 200 days into this administration. We have 3 years, 5 months and 12 days left, assuming we still have free and fair elections in 2028. For the next several years, the administration is going to continue to dismantle our country's foundations brick by brick, enabled by Congress and SCOTUS. The attack on immigrants is in full swing, but the total takeover of science, public education, universities and mass media is actually just beginning.

msgodel 1y ago
Whether it's real or just poor communication a lot of the country felt like the scientific institutions had been weaponized against them. Maybe the constituents of those institutions even believed either making themselves an enemy of the public or creating PR indicating they were was moral but the practical reality of public institutions is that they must have the trust of the public or they will come to an end. Hopefully people remember this for next time.
- watwut 1y ago
  > Whether it's real or just poor communication Nah, there was nothing "poor communication" about it. It was very well done bad faith communication from bad actors. It was intentional lies. This was not a fault of communication of these institutions. They can not match the lies machine from well founded and motivated political groups. And that is about it.
  - SauciestGNU 1y ago
    Don't forget the resentment the religious hold toward science over things like evolution and the big bang that are inconsistent with their superstitions. There's been a concerted effort by evangelical Christianity to undermine the place of science in our society, probably because when religion loses its explanatory power over the wondrous things we see in the world people turn toward the alternatives, like evidence-based explanations.
- thisisit 1y ago
  Really? Is that why Project Warp Speed was both an achievement for Trump and at the same time vaccines were produced too fast and hence unreliable? That is at the same institutions were a friend, when it fit the narrative and enemy, when it didn't fit the narrative. People who say - "Don't trust the government, they make terrible decisions" are now saying "Trust the government". What a turn around. Hopefully people who have voted for this and defending this remember this as the beginning of the end of American exceptionalism. It's certainly not happening any time soon. Maybe decades later but these things will be remembered in the same way as Mccarthyism.
  - yencabulator 1y ago
    > beginning of the end of American exceptionalism American exceptionalism has always been a weird delusion, I don't see that ending. USA not being a market leader in <whatever>, now that can end and it's starting to happen for sure.
- mindslight 1y ago
  It must be nice to be in Trumpist lala land, where it's always someone else's fault. Trust of our institutions, scientific and other, had been deliberately destroyed by anti-intellectual political hacks over the past few decades. Some from appealing to regressive religious fundamentalism, but much just shameless ignorant grandstanding of painting the complex world as unfair. And it's mostly those same hacks who are now supporting the wanton burning of our societal institutions while continuing to whitewash it as "conservatism". Sorry, the fault here lays entirely with the fascists - most especially with the people supporting them who should have known better.
ethbr1 1y ago
> We have 3 years, 5 months and 12 days left The midterms are in 2026. A swapped House (and/or Senate, but less likely) would drastically shift power.
- SauciestGNU 1y ago
  Hence the push for a mid-decade census (likely illegal) and revised fascist-friendly electoral maps. Can't risk popular sovereignty overruling Nazi priorities.
- russellbeattie 1y ago
  > "...would drastically shift power." What exactly do you think will change? The administration is already ignoring the law with impunity. Unless there's a big enough swing so that impeachment and conviction is a reality, Congress will have essentially zero impact. Around 40% of the country still supports the president unconditionally. They are truly ecstatic with what's happened so far. The other 60% are being gerrymandered so their majority status is inconsequential. If Republicans do lose the House, it'll most likely be by a small margin, and the current Congress will rush through a bunch of laws to be signed that will make the next one as useless as possible. And even if there was in fact a huge swing allowing Congress to try and stop the White House's wrecking ball, the amount of damage between now and January 2027 will be monumental and irreversible.
  - ethbr1 1y ago
    I know it's vogue to construct a view in which depression and inaction are the only logical conclusions, but that ain't our reality. > The administration is already ignoring the law with impunity Can you provide an example where they've ignored a Supreme Court ruling? And the histrionics around this are uniquely relative to modern norms. Look up the shenanigans around Marbury v Madison https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marbury_v._Madison#Background https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marbury_v._Madison#Backgroun... Joisting for power between federal branches (and with states, historically) has been a constant in American democracy more often (most of its history) than not (1970s+). > Around 40% of the country still supports the president unconditionally Yes, such is the danger of personality cults in democracies. > The other 60% are being gerrymandered so their majority status is inconsequential. Gerrymandering has always been a finger on the scales of elections, and will continue to be, until such time as Congress puts a stop to it (though debatable they have the power). https://gerrymander.princeton.edu/ https://gerrymander.princeton.edu/ > the amount of damage between now and January 2027 will be monumental and irreversible. I imagine FDR's ghost is spinning in his grave, with things to say about Hoover.
yibg 1y ago
Personally I'm not very confident even in the next free and fair election things will change materially. Trump is the public face but the reason he's in office and also has control of congress is because Americans voted that way. It's not very clear that if elections were held tomorrow, that the result would go any different.
jrs235 1y ago
But but but American Exceptionalism! Americans are the best and brightest! The rest of the world can't compete! /s Those doing and supporting what's happening a) care only about power, b) honestly think they and America is superior, c) both and d) think this time is different assuming they are educated and know history.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

themafia 1y ago

I genuinely don't understand this. This is due to my lack of experience in University since I never went, and my experience with laboratories, since I've only ever been in one, much to the annoyance of my best friends girlfriend at the time, who was studying Chinook and their spawning behavior. My understanding is the grants you're talking about are generally for small student salaries as they work on a given project simultaneously with their continued education. Is there not another way to fund these projects? Is there not a better way to engage students into these projects? I don't recall most students having a wide array of choices when it comes to taking on these opportunities. Is this not a chance to improve a rather ancient and clumsy system?

pyrale 1y ago
> Is this not a chance to improve a rather ancient and clumsy system? I seriously doubt that there is any will to improve the system. > My understanding is the grants you're talking about are generally for small student salaries as they work on a given project simultaneously with their continued education. Grants cover a much larger part of the work at labs. Basically, a grant could be paying anything except tenured salaries and administrative costs.
noelwelsh 1y ago
Grants are usually for projects. Projects may include a portion for postgraduate students, but also pay a lot of other things such as running costs for a lab, travel, conference fees, etc. The costs of running, say, a biology lab are very high (lots of equipment, need to employ technicians as well).

WillPostForFood 1y ago

This ends science in the United States. Probably not. Grants were always under political control, right? This is just shifting political control from one part of a government agency to another part of the government agency.

noelwelsh 1y ago
The key phrase in the article is "political appointee". Previously, approval was by government employees who had expertise in the given field.
jjk166 1y ago
> Individual grants will also require clearance from a political appointee and "must, where applicable, demonstrably advance the President’s policy priorities." > The order also instructs agencies to formalize the ability to cancel previously awarded grants at any time if they're considered to "no longer advance agency priorities."
ocschwar 1y ago
Until now, once you got a grant, you could count on it. Now? One of your grad students says something a little too on the nose on Bsky, and your lab gets shut down.
tremon 1y ago
Grants were always under political control, right? Sure. In the same vein, you have always been at war with Eurasia.

FredPret 1y ago

To play devil's advocate: - science funding is controlled by the state (and thus politics) in many leading countries, especially China. Doesn't seem to hold them back - the US pays people vastly more than other countries, and will continue to have the ability to fund expensive research more than others. Maybe it will regain the political will to do so in coming years You're right that uncertainty is deadly to investment, and signing up for 5 years of a PhD is certainly an investment. But it's hard to see this turn into an actual brain drain, if only for lack of a better place to go.

redserk 1y ago
In a completely isolated bubble I’d be inclined to agree that scientific research might not do so badly, but the current set of politics completely rejects generally-accepted scientific norms. After all, why bother doing research when the guy ultimately responsible for choosing your funding will take a sharpie to any data you collect if it looks bad?

Yizahi 1y ago

This ends USA, full stop. Not this particular executive order, but his orders in general. It's been half a year and that orange turd has completely overtaken USA legislative branch with this "economic emergency", while bobbleheads in the Congress just signed it away voluntarily. And now he is taking preliminary shots at the judicial branch, trying to eradicate judges who aren't bending the knee. All the while testing through his minions if it would be possible to tear down constitution too and remain in power permanently.

sizzle 1y ago
What can we do about it?
- doublerabbit 1y ago
  General Strike. If everyone tomorrow just stopped working around the world, that would paint a pretty picture.
  - BobaFloutist 1y ago
    "If everyone just" isn't ever a real solution.
  - Yizahi 1y ago
    Strike in the Washington DC where people would not go home in the evening. Put up tents, tires, pavement and keep striking until it works. Also pick up 1 single most important item. Not Epstein, however satisfying that is to throw at MAGA their own comments. I think so called "economic emergency" which in completely unconstitutional should be such a topic and strike should continue until it is repelled. Secondary topic I think should be unconstitutional measure by the Congress, which they adopted in spring and which essentially blocks congressmen from voting on this so called "emergency". That shit how whole 2025 year is a single day, or whatever they have invented. That is the only only way to stop dictatorship while it is still possible.
mathiaspoint 1y ago

derangedHorse 1y ago

Most of my friends got grants from industry. Relying on federal grants to build up a generation of grad students in any field seems like a recipe for disaster. This change might actually bring a higher standard of tax-payer funded research if it enables the public to have faster feedback mechanisms when research stagnates or is misaligned with the public interest.