7 ms·

The anti-privacy movement in Europe is really concerning. In particular as general population don't really care about it, we are going toward some major shifts.

by Tyyps 1y ago

The anti-privacy movement in Europe is really concerning. In particular as general population don't really care about it, we are going toward some major shifts. I'm wondering though how this radical turn was initiated and if some lobbies are pulling the strings behind the scene...

0points 1y ago
> In particular as general population don't really care about it > if some lobbies are pulling the strings Sure looks like it. Many people don't understand the consequences of the ChatControl proposition (backdoors for governments into all messaging apps) [1]. Politicians insists it is only about protecting kids from predators online, but see for example Sweden: * Police and secret police will have this access for swedish citizens. * Secret police have an agreement with NSA about data sharing (see Snowden). * NSA will end up storing all my DM:s. * Another country also have an agreement with NSA about data sharing. * This other country will find out about my sexual orientation or political beliefs the moment I board a plane to their country. All of this will be outside of control from my country or the laws of my country (Sweden), that is supposed to protect my free speech [2] and anti discrimination laws [3]. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_to_Prevent_and_Combat_Child_Sexual_Abuse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_to_Prevent_and_Comb... 2: https://www.riksdagen.se/sv/dokument-och-lagar/dokument/svensk-forfattningssamling/yttrandefrihetsgrundlag-19911469_sfs-1991-1469/ https://www.riksdagen.se/sv/dokument-och-lagar/dokument/sven... 3: https://www.riksdagen.se/sv/dokument-och-lagar/dokument/svensk-forfattningssamling/diskrimineringslag-2008567_sfs-2008-567/ https://www.riksdagen.se/sv/dokument-och-lagar/dokument/sven... F*k Ylva Johansson: > Research by several newspapers led to allegations of questionable connections between Johansson and her staff and companies that would benefit financially from her proposal, including Thorn and WeProtect. > Johansson rejected the accusations as being untrue, true but not illegal and as not even being accusations. > Her claim to have given data protection organizations the same access as to the backers of her proposal was rejected as untrue by several organizations and members of the EU parliament. Johansson reacted to growing rejection of her proposal by ordering commercial advertisement on Twitter paid for with EU funds. The advertisement was criticized as being misleading and illegal according to the EU's rules for targeted advertisement. [4] 4: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ylva_Johansson#Surveillance_of_private_chat_communication https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ylva_Johansson#Surveillance_of...
- edg5000 1y ago
  Agreed. Although to be the devil's advocate for a moment: Governments can currently easily tap email, and phone tapping is more feasible at scale due to machine transcription. So the apps gave use a temporary safe haven, which may get compromised by Chat Control. And before email we had mail, handled directly by the government, although reading mail is more difficult without leaving traces.
  - JoshTriplett 1y ago
    The devil doesn't need an advocate here. "Temporary safe haven" is the kind of phrasing the advocates of anti-privacy policies use to argue that this "temporary" state of affairs should be destroyed.
  - 0points 1y ago
    > And before email we had mail, handled directly by the government, although reading mail is more difficult without leaving traces. At least in my country, there has been serious laws protecting the users from police opening letters (1962:700; Postlagens tystnadsplikt). This was changed in January 2023 because people exploited it to send drugs thru post office [1]. Of course without any protests in Sweden because again people don't realize their rights to privacy are taken away from them. 1: https://www.svenskhandel.se/nyheter/nyhet/lagandring-ger-mojlighet-att-hindra-illegala-forsandelser-i-brev-och-paket https://www.svenskhandel.se/nyheter/nyhet/lagandring-ger-moj...
    - poly2it 1y ago
      I'm increasingly annoyed by the extent at which our state (Sweden, EU) is willing to sacrifice our rights to hinder the usage of recreational drugs by a minority of the population. How can it be that alcohol is endorsed so widely, given that we know many of the drugs we are being sacrificed to stop are safer, less addictive and less potent [1]? It's perhaps cynical to ask, but are we protecting the citizens, or the alcohol industry? 1: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Rational_harm_assessment_of_drugs_bar_plot.svg https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Rational_harm_asse...
rdm_blackhole 1y ago
Of course lobbies are pulling the strings. That is a given. But the more nefarious issue is that countries that use to uphold human rights and the rights to privacy for their citizens up until 10 to 15 years ago have made a complete U-turn. And before someone says that this is due to the far-right getting into power, this has really nothing to do with it. It simply is blatant attempt at muzzling the population. The worst part is that you still have European governments who feel the need to give lessons of democracy to China et al. I could see how Hungary would want to get this passed because they are well on their way to authoritarianism but this proposal coming from the EU who is supposedly politically in the center, that makes zero sense.
- graemep 1y ago
  > The worst part is that you still have European governments who feel the need to give lessons of democracy to China et al. They need to highlight that we are nothing like as bad a China. We look good in comparison. > this proposal coming from the EU who is supposedly politically in the center Is it? Its the only country in the world with a constitutional commitment to privatisation (its in the treaties, which are the constitution, and came close to being called a constitution).
  - rdm_blackhole 1y ago
    > Its the only country in the world The EU is not a country. It may very well be in 50 years from now but not presently. > > this proposal coming from the EU who is supposedly politically in the center I said `supposedly`. > They need to highlight that we are nothing like as bad a China. We look good in comparison. Not if they go through with this proposal. You can't claim to be a bastion of democracy and want/need to spy on your citizens 24/7. These 2 notions are just not compatible.
    - graemep 1y ago
      > The EU is not a country. It may very well be in 50 years from now but not presently. Semantics. its near enough to being one to compare to countries in terms of law, policy and constitution. > I said `supposedly`. Depends what you mean by supposedly, I suppose! Its intent is clearly not centrist. > Not if they go through with this proposal. Still far better than China. No prison for holding the wrong views, or following the wrong religion, or having the wrong culture. No genocide. Having elections. I am not happy with where the west is going, but comparing with China its still far better (against a low base).
dobremeno 1y ago
Not just in Europe, in the US too - Roman Storm is on trial as of last week for building a privacy tool that ended up getting used by criminals. Not much good coverage on it out there apart from the great work by The Rage journalists.
- buuuuutee 1y ago
  Roman Storm helped North Korea launder billions. That’s a bit different than average person just wanting a phone detached from the hivemind.
  - dobremeno 1y ago
    That's like saying Adi Shamir helps drug cartels, Tim Berners-Lee helps facilitate online fraud or that Henry Ford helped kill millions of people on the road. All these people created tools that could be used by anyone. Encryption, the Internet, cars. All have legitimate uses cases just like Tornado Cash does. To me, not wanting to have all of your public blockchain transactions linked to you is actually quite similar to wanting a phone detached from the hivemind - all you want is a bit of privacy.
    - buuuuutee 1y ago
      [dead]
- omdv 1y ago
  will save a google search for some: - “privacy tool” == cryptocurrency mixer - “ended up getting used by criminals” == claimed to help launder $1b Let’s just say it is in a different category than Alexandra Elbakyan.
  - dobremeno 1y ago
    It's just a neutral tool, open for everyone to use. There's plenty of people that used the tool for completely legitimate reasons, simply wanting to protect their privacy just like GrapheneOS users. Why is the creator of this tool being held responsible for how others use it? That's like dragging Henry Ford to court the moment a car driver runs someone over.
rdm_blackhole 1y ago
Also to add to this discussion, to me, it makes zero sense that you would deploy such a system that could be weaponized by a rogue government to hunt down political opponents. One could argue that they may very well think that this sort of thing could never happen, that the center will always prevail etc... but then again I remember seeing this video compilation of a lot of very confident people in the US saying that Trump would never be president a few months before the 2016 election, let alone be elected for a second term. So that makes me think, how can they so confident that "the good guys" will always be in charge? Because from where I am standing there is a massive chance that Reform will win in the UK and that the National Rally will win in France in 2027. Nobody can say that they did not know.
- Ray20 1y ago
  >how can they so confident that "the good guys" will always be in charge? They implement such systems precisely to always be in charge.
- heavyset_go 1y ago
  They don't care, what they're absolutely terrified is another Arab Spring happening at home. The bet is that no matter who is in power, the ruling classes won't find themselves under the boot, which is a pretty good bet to make. Beats a revolution, in their eyes.
  - hollerith 1y ago
    A person doesn't need to be elite to be terrified that something like Arab Spring will happen in their own country: the Arab Spring was really terrible for ordinary people: millions violently killed, millions of refugees, over ten million made homeless. In Syria, the mass killing is still going on. (I'm surprised anyone still calls it the Arab Spring now that we know how disastrously it turned out.)

by Tyyps 1y ago

0points 1y ago

> In particular as general population don't really care about it > if some lobbies are pulling the strings Sure looks like it. Many people don't understand the consequences of the ChatControl proposition (backdoors for governments into all messaging apps) [1]. Politicians insists it is only about protecting kids from predators online, but see for example Sweden: * Police and secret police will have this access for swedish citizens. * Secret police have an agreement with NSA about data sharing (see Snowden). * NSA will end up storing all my DM:s. * Another country also have an agreement with NSA about data sharing. * This other country will find out about my sexual orientation or political beliefs the moment I board a plane to their country. All of this will be outside of control from my country or the laws of my country (Sweden), that is supposed to protect my free speech [2] and anti discrimination laws [3]. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_to_Prevent_and_Combat_Child_Sexual_Abuse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_to_Prevent_and_Comb... 2: https://www.riksdagen.se/sv/dokument-och-lagar/dokument/svensk-forfattningssamling/yttrandefrihetsgrundlag-19911469_sfs-1991-1469/ https://www.riksdagen.se/sv/dokument-och-lagar/dokument/sven... 3: https://www.riksdagen.se/sv/dokument-och-lagar/dokument/svensk-forfattningssamling/diskrimineringslag-2008567_sfs-2008-567/ https://www.riksdagen.se/sv/dokument-och-lagar/dokument/sven... F*k Ylva Johansson: > Research by several newspapers led to allegations of questionable connections between Johansson and her staff and companies that would benefit financially from her proposal, including Thorn and WeProtect. > Johansson rejected the accusations as being untrue, true but not illegal and as not even being accusations. > Her claim to have given data protection organizations the same access as to the backers of her proposal was rejected as untrue by several organizations and members of the EU parliament. Johansson reacted to growing rejection of her proposal by ordering commercial advertisement on Twitter paid for with EU funds. The advertisement was criticized as being misleading and illegal according to the EU's rules for targeted advertisement. [4] 4: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ylva_Johansson#Surveillance_of_private_chat_communication https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ylva_Johansson#Surveillance_of...

edg5000 1y ago
Agreed. Although to be the devil's advocate for a moment: Governments can currently easily tap email, and phone tapping is more feasible at scale due to machine transcription. So the apps gave use a temporary safe haven, which may get compromised by Chat Control. And before email we had mail, handled directly by the government, although reading mail is more difficult without leaving traces.
- JoshTriplett 1y ago
  The devil doesn't need an advocate here. "Temporary safe haven" is the kind of phrasing the advocates of anti-privacy policies use to argue that this "temporary" state of affairs should be destroyed.
- 0points 1y ago
  > And before email we had mail, handled directly by the government, although reading mail is more difficult without leaving traces. At least in my country, there has been serious laws protecting the users from police opening letters (1962:700; Postlagens tystnadsplikt). This was changed in January 2023 because people exploited it to send drugs thru post office [1]. Of course without any protests in Sweden because again people don't realize their rights to privacy are taken away from them. 1: https://www.svenskhandel.se/nyheter/nyhet/lagandring-ger-mojlighet-att-hindra-illegala-forsandelser-i-brev-och-paket https://www.svenskhandel.se/nyheter/nyhet/lagandring-ger-moj...
  - poly2it 1y ago
    I'm increasingly annoyed by the extent at which our state (Sweden, EU) is willing to sacrifice our rights to hinder the usage of recreational drugs by a minority of the population. How can it be that alcohol is endorsed so widely, given that we know many of the drugs we are being sacrificed to stop are safer, less addictive and less potent [1]? It's perhaps cynical to ask, but are we protecting the citizens, or the alcohol industry? 1: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Rational_harm_assessment_of_drugs_bar_plot.svg https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Rational_harm_asse...

rdm_blackhole 1y ago

Of course lobbies are pulling the strings. That is a given. But the more nefarious issue is that countries that use to uphold human rights and the rights to privacy for their citizens up until 10 to 15 years ago have made a complete U-turn. And before someone says that this is due to the far-right getting into power, this has really nothing to do with it. It simply is blatant attempt at muzzling the population. The worst part is that you still have European governments who feel the need to give lessons of democracy to China et al. I could see how Hungary would want to get this passed because they are well on their way to authoritarianism but this proposal coming from the EU who is supposedly politically in the center, that makes zero sense.

graemep 1y ago
> The worst part is that you still have European governments who feel the need to give lessons of democracy to China et al. They need to highlight that we are nothing like as bad a China. We look good in comparison. > this proposal coming from the EU who is supposedly politically in the center Is it? Its the only country in the world with a constitutional commitment to privatisation (its in the treaties, which are the constitution, and came close to being called a constitution).
- rdm_blackhole 1y ago
  > Its the only country in the world The EU is not a country. It may very well be in 50 years from now but not presently. > > this proposal coming from the EU who is supposedly politically in the center I said `supposedly`. > They need to highlight that we are nothing like as bad a China. We look good in comparison. Not if they go through with this proposal. You can't claim to be a bastion of democracy and want/need to spy on your citizens 24/7. These 2 notions are just not compatible.
  - graemep 1y ago
    > The EU is not a country. It may very well be in 50 years from now but not presently. Semantics. its near enough to being one to compare to countries in terms of law, policy and constitution. > I said `supposedly`. Depends what you mean by supposedly, I suppose! Its intent is clearly not centrist. > Not if they go through with this proposal. Still far better than China. No prison for holding the wrong views, or following the wrong religion, or having the wrong culture. No genocide. Having elections. I am not happy with where the west is going, but comparing with China its still far better (against a low base).

dobremeno 1y ago

Not just in Europe, in the US too - Roman Storm is on trial as of last week for building a privacy tool that ended up getting used by criminals. Not much good coverage on it out there apart from the great work by The Rage journalists.

buuuuutee 1y ago
Roman Storm helped North Korea launder billions. That’s a bit different than average person just wanting a phone detached from the hivemind.
- dobremeno 1y ago
  That's like saying Adi Shamir helps drug cartels, Tim Berners-Lee helps facilitate online fraud or that Henry Ford helped kill millions of people on the road. All these people created tools that could be used by anyone. Encryption, the Internet, cars. All have legitimate uses cases just like Tornado Cash does. To me, not wanting to have all of your public blockchain transactions linked to you is actually quite similar to wanting a phone detached from the hivemind - all you want is a bit of privacy.
  - buuuuutee 1y ago
    [dead]
omdv 1y ago
will save a google search for some: - “privacy tool” == cryptocurrency mixer - “ended up getting used by criminals” == claimed to help launder $1b Let’s just say it is in a different category than Alexandra Elbakyan.
- dobremeno 1y ago
  It's just a neutral tool, open for everyone to use. There's plenty of people that used the tool for completely legitimate reasons, simply wanting to protect their privacy just like GrapheneOS users. Why is the creator of this tool being held responsible for how others use it? That's like dragging Henry Ford to court the moment a car driver runs someone over.

rdm_blackhole 1y ago

Also to add to this discussion, to me, it makes zero sense that you would deploy such a system that could be weaponized by a rogue government to hunt down political opponents. One could argue that they may very well think that this sort of thing could never happen, that the center will always prevail etc... but then again I remember seeing this video compilation of a lot of very confident people in the US saying that Trump would never be president a few months before the 2016 election, let alone be elected for a second term. So that makes me think, how can they so confident that "the good guys" will always be in charge? Because from where I am standing there is a massive chance that Reform will win in the UK and that the National Rally will win in France in 2027. Nobody can say that they did not know.

Ray20 1y ago
>how can they so confident that "the good guys" will always be in charge? They implement such systems precisely to always be in charge.
heavyset_go 1y ago
They don't care, what they're absolutely terrified is another Arab Spring happening at home. The bet is that no matter who is in power, the ruling classes won't find themselves under the boot, which is a pretty good bet to make. Beats a revolution, in their eyes.
- hollerith 1y ago
  A person doesn't need to be elite to be terrified that something like Arab Spring will happen in their own country: the Arab Spring was really terrible for ordinary people: millions violently killed, millions of refugees, over ten million made homeless. In Syria, the mass killing is still going on. (I'm surprised anyone still calls it the Arab Spring now that we know how disastrously it turned out.)