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I'm Swedish. Since I was a child, for decades, I was taught and never questioned the idea that Germany had learnt from their history, in the most admirable way.

by maeil 1y ago

I'm Swedish. Since I was a child, for decades, I was taught and never questioned the idea that Germany had learnt from their history, in the most admirable way. That it was really ingrained into the German culture to never let anything like the holocaust happen again. That the education system there was very good in really making people understand why it happened, what went wrong, and how to make sure there would be no second one. In early 2024, I was chatting with a German colleague of mine. Great guy, politically we were the most aligned out of anyone in our team. The genocide in Gaza was already well under way, so the topic came up. He told me, as if it was incredibly obvious "Well of course as Germany we couldn't possibly say anything about Gaza, given our history." For the rest of my life I will remember exactly that moment, where we were stood, the scene, because it came as a shock; this belief that I'd had since childhood turned out to be entirely wrong. It was the exact opposite - Germany had learnt nothing, in fact they'd learnt even less than the countries they had occupied. It was all a complete ruse, and I really lost all respect I had for how Germany has dealt with it all. A country like Japan at least doesn't even pretend to have learnt anything, and I'm not convinced that's the worse option. I should've known the second news started flowing out of Germany such as "Award ceremony set to honor novel by Palestinian author at the Frankfurt Book Fair canceled “due to the war in Israel,", along with stuff like designating B.D.S as "antisemitic" but I wanted to believe that was just a tiny minority of ignorant people. Yes, I know that now "the narrative inside Germany has been turning around" but imo it's far too late, and can't possibly be sincere, being entirely fuelled by external pressure rather than any kind of actual realization.

xg15 1y ago
> "the narrative inside Germany has been turning around" Fully agreeing with your post - and also, it's not. Maybe for parts of the population (though even there, many are extremely conflicted) but definitely not for the current (conservative) leadership. What worries them is that they find the country increasingly isolated and there is a growing risk they could become personally liable - this forces them to make some concerned noises if the atrocities become undeniable. But they never stopped practically supporting Israel wherever they can, be it with military aid or preventing EU actions that might put pressure on it. They will also snap back into the unequivocally pro-Israel narrative as soon as they can get away with it.
wuschel 1y ago
I would not extrapolate from the discourse with one German to a general statement of a heterogeneous population of ~80M people. There are many different opinions and positions in Germany - like in every country in the world. Please keep that in mind. Germany has indeed still have a ‘vaccination’. How well it works, and whether it is not exploited by politics, is another matter. Lastly, the conflict in the Middle East is one of the most complex conflicts in recent human history - and there is no easy way out. That also applies to the situation in Gaza.
- Cyph0n 1y ago
  No, there is nothing “complex” about Gaza - neither before nor after Oct 7. The late Michael Brooks shared a small thought experiment that might help elucidate this: https://youtu.be/7ebPj_FqM5Q https://youtu.be/7ebPj_FqM5Q
  - VonGallifrey 1y ago
    It’s one thing to call the situation “nothing complex”, but there was no solution in this clip. Usually when people call something complex they mean that the solution is complex.
    - Cyph0n 1y ago
      [flagged]
      - VonGallifrey 1y ago
        How exactly do you suggest that a country like Germany (since Germanys inaction was the topic of this thread) reach those goals? How does Germany end the blockade of Gaza? How does Germany end apartheid in the West Bank? Just because I can’t do anything to improve the situation does not mean that I am in favour of the status quo. That does not make me evil either.
        Cyph0n 1y ago
anton-c 1y ago
I am interested to know why you call out Japan as learning nothing. Obviously modern Japan has an excellent reputation and is not known as a warring nation( "no military" but ofc they have the JDF) so I'm guessing there's something deeper I don't know. Genuinely curious.
- keutoi 1y ago
  There is some denial about the crimes committed by Imperial Japan. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing_Massacre_denial https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing_Massacre_denial https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1gb94m1/why_are_the_japanese_said_to_have_not_reflected/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1gb94m1/why_...
  - anton-c 1y ago
    That is awful, I see.
  - soraminazuki 1y ago
    That's not representative of the Japanese public opinion at all, so I fail to see how it supports the view that the entire country "hasn't learned anything at all."
    - dghlsakjg 1y ago
      What is the average level of knowledge around the history of imperial Japan. Is that period covered thoroughly in school? I was under the impression that Japanese people don't so much deny war crimes, as they just don't talk/learn about the uglier parts of what happened during the first half of the 20th century. Is the Rape of Nanking a well known event in Japan? Are the significant battles and general tactics of the war(s) talked about? Do they talk about the Japanese Army's general treatment of foreign civilians? I guess, what I'm wondering is if I asked the average person on the street these questions, would they know at all what I'm talking about? Would they have the knowledge to talk about it in more detail? Is this like in the US where most people have no idea about American intervention in Cuba, and the rest of the meddling that the US was involved in in Latin America?
throw627004 1y ago
As a German, I think you should cut your colleague some slack. There's 8 billion people in the world who aren't German. If there's one topic that Germans don't chip in on, it won't move the needle. Whatever we as Germans say on Israel/Palestine will be taken the wrong way by someone. Critical of Israel? Still an antisemite! Supportive of Israel? Pathological guilt! It super sucks, but I too will leave it to others to voice strong opinions in this matter. And there's no shortage of that.
- NohatCoder 1y ago
  And so you leave your politicians to set the official German opinion of unconditional support for Israel.
- ath3nd 1y ago
  [flagged]
- holowoodman 1y ago
  There is also an unspoken bit of realpolitik there: Israel is still an ally to Germany, Palestine isn't, Iran isn't, Hamas isn't, etc. So this is actually a super-nice position to be in, you can support your ally no matter what they do, while still looking contrite and morally superior by pulling the "we are Germany, we are not allowed to have a say in the matter" card.
  - xg15 1y ago
    If this was conveyed more honestly, it would at least be understandable (up to some point). I think what grates me is the dishonesty: We want to do both at the same time: A neutral mediator that advocates for the two state solution and the world's (second-)closest ally of Israel. That's like wanting to be both the coach and the referee. At some point it just becomes an insult to everyone's intelligence. (The US does the same spiel)
    - holowoodman 1y ago
      It half-way is, at least by the new chancellor Merz, who praised Israel for doing our "dirty work" in bombing Iran. And he was promptly criticized by the rest of the political establishment and the press for that.
pyuser583 1y ago
Germany has learned to be critical of themselves, and not be critical of others. Especially the victims of Nazisim. That worked when Germany was occupied, or split in half, or broke. Now that a unified Germany is in a position of leadership, rethinking history in terms of absolute right and wrong is probably a good idea.
ivape 1y ago
David Simon (creator of The Wire) once gave a lecture at a Jewish conference trying to make the case that Jews in America should be uniquely aligned with the plight of Black Americans in the inner cities. The case was that the Jews went through an experience during WW2 that makes them uniquely qualified to always align in solidarity against oppression, poverty, and general suffering. To be children of ethnic cleansing (obviously I’m describing the Holocaust lightly here) and still commit the same crime in Gaza is profound. It’s a great point you bring up, that being, what have we learned?
- dghlsakjg 1y ago
  Jews in America are not the ones committing a genocide in Gaza. Quite a significant proportion of the American Jews are absolutely horrified. Can I ask why you think that American Jews are any more responsible for the crimes of Israel in Gaza than non-Jews, or Jews elsewhere in the world? Do you think that Judaism is a monolith, or that American Jews are the same as all Jews? I ask because blaming Jews elsewhere for the acts of Israel, and conflating all of Jewry with Israel is a common tactic of anti-Semitic movements. I can't tell if you are doing that intentionally, or if you have just made your point poorly. Assuming you are acting in good faith, you should look at the history of Black/Jewish relations in the civil rights eras. There was a disproportionate amount of support from American Jews (compared to the population at large) towards the civil rights movement. MLK himself was outspoken about the support from American Jews: "How could there be anti-Semitism among Negroes when our Jewish friends have demonstrated their commitment to the principle of tolerance and brotherhood not only in the form of sizable contributions, but in many other tangible ways, and often at great personal sacrifice. Can we ever express our appreciation to the rabbis who chose to give moral witness with us in St. Augustine during our recent protest against segregation in that unhappy city? Need I remind anyone of the awful beating suffered by Rabbi Arthur Lelyveld of Cleveland when he joined the civil rights workers there in Hattiesburg, Mississippi? And who can ever forget the sacrifice of two Jewish lives, Andrew Goodman and Michael Schwerner, in the swamps of Mississippi? It would be impossible to record the contribution that the Jewish people have made toward the Negro's struggle for freedom—it has been so great."
  - 1y ago
dzhiurgis 1y ago
Of course you’ll learn nothing when you’re not allowed to question…
thaumasiotes 1y ago
> A country like Japan at least doesn't even pretend to have learnt anything I was under the impression that they had a lot to say about how WWII taught them the virtues of pacifism?
int_19h 1y ago
The German relationship with Israel is very weird, to put it mildly, and I don't mean just the official government position, but the more broad political culture. To the best of my knowledge, they are the only Western country in which there are far left groups that proactively support Israel specifically wrt what it's doing in Gaza. And by "support" I mean e.g. posters encouraging to drop more bombs on "Hamas Nazis". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Germans_(political_current) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Germans_(political_curren...
account42 1y ago
The notion that Germany specifically needs to have learned something from WWII is completely absurd to me and as far as I am concerned anyone that holds it has themself not learned the correct lesson - that is that normal mundane humans, that is all of us, are capable of committing atrocities. Instead the lesson the world seems to have learned is "German nationalism (and by extension western nationalism) bad, Jews must be protected at all cost", which leads us to where we are now. That Germans are brainwashed with this nonsense more than others is true but not exactly something the German people chose for themselves.

by maeil 1y ago

xg15 1y ago

> "the narrative inside Germany has been turning around" Fully agreeing with your post - and also, it's not. Maybe for parts of the population (though even there, many are extremely conflicted) but definitely not for the current (conservative) leadership. What worries them is that they find the country increasingly isolated and there is a growing risk they could become personally liable - this forces them to make some concerned noises if the atrocities become undeniable. But they never stopped practically supporting Israel wherever they can, be it with military aid or preventing EU actions that might put pressure on it. They will also snap back into the unequivocally pro-Israel narrative as soon as they can get away with it.

wuschel 1y ago

I would not extrapolate from the discourse with one German to a general statement of a heterogeneous population of ~80M people. There are many different opinions and positions in Germany - like in every country in the world. Please keep that in mind. Germany has indeed still have a ‘vaccination’. How well it works, and whether it is not exploited by politics, is another matter. Lastly, the conflict in the Middle East is one of the most complex conflicts in recent human history - and there is no easy way out. That also applies to the situation in Gaza.

Cyph0n 1y ago
No, there is nothing “complex” about Gaza - neither before nor after Oct 7. The late Michael Brooks shared a small thought experiment that might help elucidate this: https://youtu.be/7ebPj_FqM5Q https://youtu.be/7ebPj_FqM5Q
- VonGallifrey 1y ago
  It’s one thing to call the situation “nothing complex”, but there was no solution in this clip. Usually when people call something complex they mean that the solution is complex.
  - Cyph0n 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - VonGallifrey 1y ago
      How exactly do you suggest that a country like Germany (since Germanys inaction was the topic of this thread) reach those goals? How does Germany end the blockade of Gaza? How does Germany end apartheid in the West Bank? Just because I can’t do anything to improve the situation does not mean that I am in favour of the status quo. That does not make me evil either.
      - Cyph0n 1y ago

anton-c 1y ago

I am interested to know why you call out Japan as learning nothing. Obviously modern Japan has an excellent reputation and is not known as a warring nation( "no military" but ofc they have the JDF) so I'm guessing there's something deeper I don't know. Genuinely curious.

keutoi 1y ago
There is some denial about the crimes committed by Imperial Japan. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing_Massacre_denial https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing_Massacre_denial https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1gb94m1/why_are_the_japanese_said_to_have_not_reflected/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1gb94m1/why_...
- anton-c 1y ago
  That is awful, I see.
- soraminazuki 1y ago
  That's not representative of the Japanese public opinion at all, so I fail to see how it supports the view that the entire country "hasn't learned anything at all."
  - dghlsakjg 1y ago
    What is the average level of knowledge around the history of imperial Japan. Is that period covered thoroughly in school? I was under the impression that Japanese people don't so much deny war crimes, as they just don't talk/learn about the uglier parts of what happened during the first half of the 20th century. Is the Rape of Nanking a well known event in Japan? Are the significant battles and general tactics of the war(s) talked about? Do they talk about the Japanese Army's general treatment of foreign civilians? I guess, what I'm wondering is if I asked the average person on the street these questions, would they know at all what I'm talking about? Would they have the knowledge to talk about it in more detail? Is this like in the US where most people have no idea about American intervention in Cuba, and the rest of the meddling that the US was involved in in Latin America?

throw627004 1y ago

As a German, I think you should cut your colleague some slack. There's 8 billion people in the world who aren't German. If there's one topic that Germans don't chip in on, it won't move the needle. Whatever we as Germans say on Israel/Palestine will be taken the wrong way by someone. Critical of Israel? Still an antisemite! Supportive of Israel? Pathological guilt! It super sucks, but I too will leave it to others to voice strong opinions in this matter. And there's no shortage of that.

NohatCoder 1y ago
And so you leave your politicians to set the official German opinion of unconditional support for Israel.
ath3nd 1y ago
[flagged]
holowoodman 1y ago
There is also an unspoken bit of realpolitik there: Israel is still an ally to Germany, Palestine isn't, Iran isn't, Hamas isn't, etc. So this is actually a super-nice position to be in, you can support your ally no matter what they do, while still looking contrite and morally superior by pulling the "we are Germany, we are not allowed to have a say in the matter" card.
- xg15 1y ago
  If this was conveyed more honestly, it would at least be understandable (up to some point). I think what grates me is the dishonesty: We want to do both at the same time: A neutral mediator that advocates for the two state solution and the world's (second-)closest ally of Israel. That's like wanting to be both the coach and the referee. At some point it just becomes an insult to everyone's intelligence. (The US does the same spiel)
  - holowoodman 1y ago
    It half-way is, at least by the new chancellor Merz, who praised Israel for doing our "dirty work" in bombing Iran. And he was promptly criticized by the rest of the political establishment and the press for that.

pyuser583 1y ago

Germany has learned to be critical of themselves, and not be critical of others. Especially the victims of Nazisim. That worked when Germany was occupied, or split in half, or broke. Now that a unified Germany is in a position of leadership, rethinking history in terms of absolute right and wrong is probably a good idea.

ivape 1y ago

David Simon (creator of The Wire) once gave a lecture at a Jewish conference trying to make the case that Jews in America should be uniquely aligned with the plight of Black Americans in the inner cities. The case was that the Jews went through an experience during WW2 that makes them uniquely qualified to always align in solidarity against oppression, poverty, and general suffering. To be children of ethnic cleansing (obviously I’m describing the Holocaust lightly here) and still commit the same crime in Gaza is profound. It’s a great point you bring up, that being, what have we learned?

dghlsakjg 1y ago
Jews in America are not the ones committing a genocide in Gaza. Quite a significant proportion of the American Jews are absolutely horrified. Can I ask why you think that American Jews are any more responsible for the crimes of Israel in Gaza than non-Jews, or Jews elsewhere in the world? Do you think that Judaism is a monolith, or that American Jews are the same as all Jews? I ask because blaming Jews elsewhere for the acts of Israel, and conflating all of Jewry with Israel is a common tactic of anti-Semitic movements. I can't tell if you are doing that intentionally, or if you have just made your point poorly. Assuming you are acting in good faith, you should look at the history of Black/Jewish relations in the civil rights eras. There was a disproportionate amount of support from American Jews (compared to the population at large) towards the civil rights movement. MLK himself was outspoken about the support from American Jews: "How could there be anti-Semitism among Negroes when our Jewish friends have demonstrated their commitment to the principle of tolerance and brotherhood not only in the form of sizable contributions, but in many other tangible ways, and often at great personal sacrifice. Can we ever express our appreciation to the rabbis who chose to give moral witness with us in St. Augustine during our recent protest against segregation in that unhappy city? Need I remind anyone of the awful beating suffered by Rabbi Arthur Lelyveld of Cleveland when he joined the civil rights workers there in Hattiesburg, Mississippi? And who can ever forget the sacrifice of two Jewish lives, Andrew Goodman and Michael Schwerner, in the swamps of Mississippi? It would be impossible to record the contribution that the Jewish people have made toward the Negro's struggle for freedom—it has been so great."
- 1y ago

dzhiurgis 1y ago

Of course you’ll learn nothing when you’re not allowed to question…

thaumasiotes 1y ago

> A country like Japan at least doesn't even pretend to have learnt anything I was under the impression that they had a lot to say about how WWII taught them the virtues of pacifism?

int_19h 1y ago

The German relationship with Israel is very weird, to put it mildly, and I don't mean just the official government position, but the more broad political culture. To the best of my knowledge, they are the only Western country in which there are far left groups that proactively support Israel specifically wrt what it's doing in Gaza. And by "support" I mean e.g. posters encouraging to drop more bombs on "Hamas Nazis". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Germans_(political_current) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Germans_(political_curren...

account42 1y ago

The notion that Germany specifically needs to have learned something from WWII is completely absurd to me and as far as I am concerned anyone that holds it has themself not learned the correct lesson - that is that normal mundane humans, that is all of us, are capable of committing atrocities. Instead the lesson the world seems to have learned is "German nationalism (and by extension western nationalism) bad, Jews must be protected at all cost", which leads us to where we are now. That Germans are brainwashed with this nonsense more than others is true but not exactly something the German people chose for themselves.