8 ms·

>If our institutions can communicate their work better, supernatural beliefs will dry up a bit. We’ve seen this historically. I feel like this article misses t

by Bnichs 1y ago

>If our institutions can communicate their work better, supernatural beliefs will dry up a bit. We’ve seen this historically. I feel like this article misses the reason why people distrust institutions. Being "kicked out of the tent" is no doubt part of it, but it's more that the institutions themselves have stopped trying to communicate in good faith. In the past 50 or so years we've seen almost every institution (in USA at least) get caught in a massive scheme of lying and manipulation. The church was caught harboring pedophiles, the education system told us trades were bad and we needed to spend $100k+ to have a good job, the Healthcare system leveraged our own wellbeing against their profits, the government sided with insurance companies, banks, etc over its own people at every turn then proceeded to lie us into war after war after war, and all the the while the news has been proven to support almost every lie happily if the ad dollars go their way. Not a single institution hasn't failed us. Asking why people distrust institutions is the wrong question. Any partner that lied to you that much would never be trusted again, distrust is a defense mechanism that comes from years of betrayal. But still there's some implication that we should still trust them, despite the lies, and along with it a sense that distrusting them makes you crazy (paranormal/alien beliefs are a good example). This problem does not originate from the people, it's the result of a world where truth only gets in the way of profits and power and actual people are the lowest priority.

sorcerer-mar 1y ago
Nah, you're exhibiting the fundamental problem which is effectively conspiratorial thinking. Not in the UFO sense, and I don't mean it disparagingly at all -- I mean literally ascribing behavior to some type of superstructure that doesn't really exist. "The healthcare system" is not one thing that "says" stuff. For every component of the education system that was trying to eliminate trades, there were others trying to combat it, and neither side was merely the decision of any conscious agent that could be said to be deciding or "saying" anything. All of the outcomes and the things these systems "say" are emergent phenomena from a confluence of countless forces. Sometimes they yield bad outcomes! But that doesn't mean you can just toss out the system, largely because unless you alter the larger dynamics that produced that system, any replacement will just come to mimic the prior one. The individuals involved hardly matter.
- mike_hearn 1y ago
  The health care system is heavily subject to licensing of various kinds, and academia is heavily defined by grant funding. If just a tiny handful of people in the government decide the healthcare system will say X, then it will say X.
  - sorcerer-mar 1y ago
    As a case in point, GP refers to "the Healthcare system leveraged our own wellbeing against their profits" That would point toward the business interests of actual provider organizations (like hospitals) or insurers, who have different incentives from each other and very different incentives from individual healthcare providers, who also have very different interests (and are very different people on a variety of dimensions) from those in academia who are "heavily defined by grant funding." Perhaps you could share a concrete example of what you mean, because right now we're talking about 4 or 5 completely distinct, individually gigantic industries that all interact to produce "the healthcare system" and its behaviors.
    - mike_hearn 1y ago
      The industries don't matter. They are all subject to very broad and powerful government licensing rules that can overrule their own opinions at any time. For example, during COVID there were doctors who lost their license to practice because they disagreed with the government stance on vaccines. Therefore, the remaining doctors spoke with one voice. The government used them as sock puppets, in effect. Whether you agree with this policy or not, it is an example in which the healthcare system became one system that "said" things in concert.
      - sorcerer-mar 1y ago
        No, they aren't "all" subject to licensing rules. That's why the specific industries do matter. Can you share some examples of these doctors? AFAIK the only doctors who lost their licenses are those who created fake medical documentation or who shared verifiably false medical information. Not for "disagreeing" with the government stance on vaccines. I don't know if you lived in a different timeline than me, but I remember a lively debate throughout the entirety of COVID. Consensus (and evidence) was overwhelmingly on one side, sure, similar to how consensus is that you should go to the hospital if you get a heart attack. And yeah, if a doctor advises someone against that despite strong clinical evidence that the patient is best served by going to the hospital, they'll jeopardize their license.
lloda2 1y ago
The church, the education system, the healthcare system, the government, and the banks, are all actual people. You guys are doing this to yourselves in an effort to scam each other.
- _DeadFred_ 1y ago
  A couple years back I was at a really really low point in life, I wanted someone to talk to. Not like counseling or anything, literally just someone to talk to one time over a cup of coffee, because it's not great to go without talking to people at all. I reached out to the churches from my small town to the nearest city. In addition I reached out to the above organizations, asking 'Is there anyone they can connect me with to get a cup of coffee and talk for like an hour at their convenience'. Most useful response I got was for paid christian phone counseling services and asking for my insurance provider information to see if it would cover it. No bible thumper preacher offered to talk, no Catholic priest, no one. I always kind of thought one trait of those groups was their willingness to talk to people. This is not how society was the majority of my life. Something is very wrong, and very broken. So I just searched if there was anything to connect and found this. The modern state of our society. I hate it: https://priestchat.com/ https://priestchat.com/ From the front page: Is there an AI behind the priests on this platform? No, our priests are real people who are here to offer you spiritual guidance and support. https://priestchat.com/en/legal/terms-of-service https://priestchat.com/en/legal/terms-of-service TOS: The Service provided by PriestChat.com is a platform facilitating simulated and purely fictional exchanges which are intended exclusively for entertainment and novelty purposes. 14. AI Disclosure Nature of AI-Generated Content: All interactions, responses, suggestions, or communications made available through the Service may be partially or wholly generated by AI-based processes. These processes leverage algorithmic models, machine learning techniques, and potentially third-party computational platforms.se to any Content provided through the Service. Etc. etc.
  - jsbisviewtiful 1y ago
    Your perspective on religious institutions is very different than mine and I'm very curious how that came to be and how much different your experience was than mine. I'm in my thirties and since I was very young I've known *not* to trust most religious institutions and --being raised on Sesame Street and Mr Rogers-- instinctively was not fond of the people in them. Most church goers I would meet were usually not friendly to others who were different than them and were seemingly interested in their own "salvation" before others. Leadership was mainly interested in power/money and would be aghast if anyone dared question anything about the church - even something as stupid as a talking snake. Oh and Pikachu, Harry Potter, music and asking questions were all a ticket to eternal damnation even though you are loved. 25+ years later, I'm not at all surprised about the catholic church's rampant sexual exploitation of children or christians' downright hatred of others and complete lack of Jesus's teachings. Even the rise of christo nationalism and fascism in the US seemed like an inevitability. Seeing a church organization lie about a for-profit chat bot seems on-brand and has seemed on-brand for as long as I've been an inquisitive child.
Eddy_Viscosity2 1y ago
The purpose of a system is what it does. In the US, 'the system' makes money for some at the expense of others. If rational thinking supported this system, it would be rewarded more. The fact that conspiratorial and supernatural thinking is on the rise suggest that it better aligns with the purpose of 'the system' - i.e. the transfer of money from the many to the few. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_purpose_of_a_system_is_what_it_does https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_purpose_of_a_system_is_wha...

by Bnichs 1y ago

sorcerer-mar 1y ago

Nah, you're exhibiting the fundamental problem which is effectively conspiratorial thinking. Not in the UFO sense, and I don't mean it disparagingly at all -- I mean literally ascribing behavior to some type of superstructure that doesn't really exist. "The healthcare system" is not one thing that "says" stuff. For every component of the education system that was trying to eliminate trades, there were others trying to combat it, and neither side was merely the decision of any conscious agent that could be said to be deciding or "saying" anything. All of the outcomes and the things these systems "say" are emergent phenomena from a confluence of countless forces. Sometimes they yield bad outcomes! But that doesn't mean you can just toss out the system, largely because unless you alter the larger dynamics that produced that system, any replacement will just come to mimic the prior one. The individuals involved hardly matter.

mike_hearn 1y ago
The health care system is heavily subject to licensing of various kinds, and academia is heavily defined by grant funding. If just a tiny handful of people in the government decide the healthcare system will say X, then it will say X.
- sorcerer-mar 1y ago
  As a case in point, GP refers to "the Healthcare system leveraged our own wellbeing against their profits" That would point toward the business interests of actual provider organizations (like hospitals) or insurers, who have different incentives from each other and very different incentives from individual healthcare providers, who also have very different interests (and are very different people on a variety of dimensions) from those in academia who are "heavily defined by grant funding." Perhaps you could share a concrete example of what you mean, because right now we're talking about 4 or 5 completely distinct, individually gigantic industries that all interact to produce "the healthcare system" and its behaviors.
  - mike_hearn 1y ago
    The industries don't matter. They are all subject to very broad and powerful government licensing rules that can overrule their own opinions at any time. For example, during COVID there were doctors who lost their license to practice because they disagreed with the government stance on vaccines. Therefore, the remaining doctors spoke with one voice. The government used them as sock puppets, in effect. Whether you agree with this policy or not, it is an example in which the healthcare system became one system that "said" things in concert.
    - sorcerer-mar 1y ago
      No, they aren't "all" subject to licensing rules. That's why the specific industries do matter. Can you share some examples of these doctors? AFAIK the only doctors who lost their licenses are those who created fake medical documentation or who shared verifiably false medical information. Not for "disagreeing" with the government stance on vaccines. I don't know if you lived in a different timeline than me, but I remember a lively debate throughout the entirety of COVID. Consensus (and evidence) was overwhelmingly on one side, sure, similar to how consensus is that you should go to the hospital if you get a heart attack. And yeah, if a doctor advises someone against that despite strong clinical evidence that the patient is best served by going to the hospital, they'll jeopardize their license.

lloda2 1y ago

The church, the education system, the healthcare system, the government, and the banks, are all actual people. You guys are doing this to yourselves in an effort to scam each other.

_DeadFred_ 1y ago
A couple years back I was at a really really low point in life, I wanted someone to talk to. Not like counseling or anything, literally just someone to talk to one time over a cup of coffee, because it's not great to go without talking to people at all. I reached out to the churches from my small town to the nearest city. In addition I reached out to the above organizations, asking 'Is there anyone they can connect me with to get a cup of coffee and talk for like an hour at their convenience'. Most useful response I got was for paid christian phone counseling services and asking for my insurance provider information to see if it would cover it. No bible thumper preacher offered to talk, no Catholic priest, no one. I always kind of thought one trait of those groups was their willingness to talk to people. This is not how society was the majority of my life. Something is very wrong, and very broken. So I just searched if there was anything to connect and found this. The modern state of our society. I hate it: https://priestchat.com/ https://priestchat.com/ From the front page: Is there an AI behind the priests on this platform? No, our priests are real people who are here to offer you spiritual guidance and support. https://priestchat.com/en/legal/terms-of-service https://priestchat.com/en/legal/terms-of-service TOS: The Service provided by PriestChat.com is a platform facilitating simulated and purely fictional exchanges which are intended exclusively for entertainment and novelty purposes. 14. AI Disclosure Nature of AI-Generated Content: All interactions, responses, suggestions, or communications made available through the Service may be partially or wholly generated by AI-based processes. These processes leverage algorithmic models, machine learning techniques, and potentially third-party computational platforms.se to any Content provided through the Service. Etc. etc.
- jsbisviewtiful 1y ago
  Your perspective on religious institutions is very different than mine and I'm very curious how that came to be and how much different your experience was than mine. I'm in my thirties and since I was very young I've known *not* to trust most religious institutions and --being raised on Sesame Street and Mr Rogers-- instinctively was not fond of the people in them. Most church goers I would meet were usually not friendly to others who were different than them and were seemingly interested in their own "salvation" before others. Leadership was mainly interested in power/money and would be aghast if anyone dared question anything about the church - even something as stupid as a talking snake. Oh and Pikachu, Harry Potter, music and asking questions were all a ticket to eternal damnation even though you are loved. 25+ years later, I'm not at all surprised about the catholic church's rampant sexual exploitation of children or christians' downright hatred of others and complete lack of Jesus's teachings. Even the rise of christo nationalism and fascism in the US seemed like an inevitability. Seeing a church organization lie about a for-profit chat bot seems on-brand and has seemed on-brand for as long as I've been an inquisitive child.

Eddy_Viscosity2 1y ago

The purpose of a system is what it does. In the US, 'the system' makes money for some at the expense of others. If rational thinking supported this system, it would be rewarded more. The fact that conspiratorial and supernatural thinking is on the rise suggest that it better aligns with the purpose of 'the system' - i.e. the transfer of money from the many to the few. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_purpose_of_a_system_is_what_it_does https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_purpose_of_a_system_is_wha...