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Show HN: I mixed selling t-shirts with a little bit of game theory

171 points by seekely 14y ago

I had this idea rolling around in my head for the last couple of years, and I finally decided to build the damned thing just to get idea relief. The backend is a typical LAMP stack with the Symfony2 framework backing the P. Varnish sits in front of all the Chef managed Linode boxes. The site will work without Javascript (up until the checkout), and the style degrades really nicely depending on your viewport (try it out by resizing your browser). I'm open to all comments and critiques, so let me hear them. And if you are into graphic t-shirts, here is a code for a Hacker News 20% discount: 4803-7940-0816-5604!

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
whiletruefork 14y ago
Adding some type of effect to show that the shirts are actively being bought (I imagine every few seconds half a shirt 'flash') would give the sale more of an active-feeling. Right now I don't feel strongly urged to make a decision right now, but rather that I could come back later. Second comment: Rather than giving away the least popular shirt, you could apply some type of variable pricing depending on when a user purchased a shirt given its popularity?
- nrlucas 14y ago
  Increases and Decreases like some T-Shirt Market.
seekely 14y ago
I had this idea rolling around in my head for the last couple of years, and I finally decided to build the damned thing just to get idea relief. The backend is a typical LAMP stack with the Symfony2 framework backing the P. Varnish sits in front of all the Chef managed Linode boxes. The site will work without Javascript (up until the checkout), and the style degrades really nicely depending on your viewport (try it out by resizing your browser). I'm open to all comments and critiques, so let me hear them. And if you are into graphic t-shirts, here is a code for a Hacker News 20% discount: 4803-7940-0816-5604!
- MattGrommes 14y ago
  That's a heck of a cool idea, nice job! I visit a lot of t-shirt sites and my first thought was "Very clever!" which doesn't happen that often. :) My only problem is that I already have enough of a t-shirt buying habit that spending $25 per shirt isn't going to happen very often, especially when I don't know the quality of the shirts. You might add more detail on the actual shirt quality and fit. The email collection line on the homepage doesn't make it clear what kinds of emails you'll be sending. If it's a weekly (bi-weekly, whatever) showing of the new shirts I'd say something like 'Sign up for our weekly new shirt email' so it's more specific.
  - seekely 14y ago
    Thanks! I have some shirt info at http://getnifty.com/shirt/info http://getnifty.com/shirt/info, but agreed it should be more prominent and detailed. And pushing out copy change to 'Sign up for weekly sale notifications' as we speak.
    - girasquid 14y ago
      I checked out the new page with the extra information, and a new question formed: why so many brands for the shirts? Typically I'm used to seeing a shirt shop just say "we print on American Apparel".
      - seekely 14y ago
        Good question and obviously not an optimal situation. Since I'm a small shop going through a third party printer, I am last in line for raw t-shirt supply. Mix in color and size availability, and it gets pretty tricky to rely on one brand. So for now, I am using a few high quality brands to make sure t-shirts get out in a timely manner.
    - pc86 14y ago
      FYI I found a typo on your FAQ page: What if I purchased the least popular t-shirt multiple times? Nice going! You will receive a coupon giving you free t-shirts in the same quanity as your purchase of the least popular t-shirt.
fudged71 14y ago
On first glance, I feel like people would simply choose the shirt that they think looks the least fashionable, which just leads to regrettable purchases.
- seekely 14y ago
  I do not want people making regrettable purchases, so I will play around with the concept if that's the impression I get from buyers. I am very curious to find out if people will take buying the least popular t-shirt as a positive 'i'm unique' or negative 'i suck'.
  - fudged71 14y ago
    It would be very interesting to see how people use the site.
- polshaw 14y ago
  I'm curious.. would you do that if you were buying? I'll admit i had a think about which it might be, but then i think if i was going to put $20 down on buying one, I would just buy the one i wanted, and take any freebies as a bonus. FWIW, my money is on #2. I only just realised they were all from photoshop, and i've used it quite a bit. It's also far too long for a 'geek humour' t-shirt- no one would read the whole thing, let alone understand it. Add to that a 'lovers' connotation which would limit the appeal even further. But coming back to your point; I don't think i'd want it. So, IMO, for this to have value for me, I would need to like all the t-shirts. (FWIW, i like 1/3/5). e: also, yes.. needs bigger images.. can't even read the whole thing on the modelled PS tee image, not good!
citricsquid 14y ago
I like the idea, but I have the feeling your t-shirts are overpriced. I had what you could call a t-shirt problem, I purchased over 150 in the space of a year, anyway one common thing I noticed is that a brand (eg: Threadless, Bustedtees) that sold based on merit and not gimmick could sell at a much higher price than somewhere that was relatively unknown or sold based on some sort of gimmick. For example teefury.com is a site that does a sort of similar thing to you with time based sales, they sell at around $10 each but would never do well at $25 each. My (anecdotal -- myself and friends) understanding of why people aren't comfortable spending $25 on a time-sale t-shirt is that you're selling selling based on 2 things, the t-shirt itself and the idea that it's time-exclusive, this adds pressure. If I purchase a t-shirt from somewhere like Threadless I know it's likely if I wait 2 weeks it's going to be there still, so I don't feel like "I must buy now!" and then I don't feel like I'm paying for something I might not want in a week, whereas if I see a t-shirt on your site with 1 day to go: "That t-shirt is cool! Hmm, but I have to buy it right now... and $25 is a premium t-shirt price... I might not like it in a few days... I'll skip". This behaviour is especially so with the added idea that I'm possibly buying a t-shirt nobody else likes, it makes me think maybe it's just a crappy t-shirt. Your site is a site that customers would constantly be coming back to, so while you might not make such a good margin on a $12.50 shirt vs. a $25 shirt, it would be made up for in the average customer purchasing 20 shirts a year vs. 5 if they had to be considerate about their purchases. I'm not sure if I explained that well, if not I can try and re-word it.
- seekely 14y ago
  As a very frequent t-shirt purchaser myself, the reason sites like TeeFury (which I love) do not sell at $25 is because their t-shirt quality, design, and printing style is not anywhere near as nice as Threadless or DesignByHumans. I am hoping Nifty will earn a reputation more like the latter sites than the former. With that in mind, I will definitely test price points and appreciate the perspective from a fellow t-shirt buyer.
  - citricsquid 14y ago
    That's true (re: quality), I've spent $50 on a few t-shirts from my favourite quality companies (http://jinx.com http://jinx.com t-shirts wear like a dream) An idea that might fit with your site would be to offer a shirt of the month deal (bustedtees example: http://www.bustedtees.com/shirtofthemonth http://www.bustedtees.com/shirtofthemonth). $200 upfront for 12 months of shirts (works out at about $13/m), every third week of the month you generate a random shirt for me from that weeks shirts and if that shirt matches the least popular I also get a bonus shirt (fits with the theme of the main weekly sale) or maybe if I am a subscriber I get double the chance of a bonus shirt (maybe least popular and most popular or least popular and second least popular) or something. You could even do it like a loss leader type deal, have a yearly subscription for $100 (which would be ridiculously low and pull lots of people in) and then use the marketing from that (people telling their friends about the cool shirt that just arrived, tweeting about it etc. every month). Although I guess as you're doing t-shirts on demand there's probably not much financial outlay so cash up front might not be worth potentially losing profits. If your shirt quality is good (I'm going to order a shirt later to find out) then I'd sign up to that sort of deal ($200, or $100) without a second thought because there's nothing better than getting a surprise t-shirt.
chrispatton 14y ago
I'm friends with seekely, and we have gone back and forth about the idea of framing the "winner" as the "least popular", which as a negative connotation, vs. using terminology like "unique", which has a more positive connotation. It could be that by using the more negative language, people would believe that the free t-shirt is a consolation prize for having bad taste, as opposed to being excited about being special somehow. However, it's a completely subjective assessment in either direction. What did you all get as a first impression (or did it even register with you in that way)?
- polshaw 14y ago
  My take would be that i DGAF if other people on the internet/US share my taste in t-shirts. My sole concern in that area would be geared towards wanting a free one. Personally, I wouldn't buy one I wouldn't be happy to pay the full price for, and of course my brain sees it as very unlikely that this would be the least popular. Also, it seems a poor gamble to go for one I like less on the hope that I might get another free. So if i picked the least popular, my reaction would just be 'bonus, free tee!' (i wouldn't have any feeling of 'special unique little flower', either). As for the language specifically, firstly, 'least popular' is functional. It tells me exactly what you are talking about. If i read 'most unique' i would have no idea how you were measuring that, and would probably feel uneasy about it-- like you were using the phrase as cover to pick whatever you wanted to. (Which is funny, since 'least popular' is already the best financial option for yous!). Secondly, it doesn't seem too negative to me (compare 'least awesome' vs 'worst'). That is for the landing page (and if any commiseration email), anyway. As far as congratulatory email, I would probably agree to frame it as 'most unique'. Hope that helps!.. I know how difficult it can be to get basic perspective when you are too involved with something.
stefanobernardi 14y ago
Cool idea, agree with the comment about regrettable purchases so I think you need to figure something out for that. I think there's a lot of space to apply game theory / gamification in e-commerce. Still need to get a clear understanding on the regulatory framework for this. Also, which fulfillment service are you using? Good luck!
- seekely 14y ago
  I am fulfilling the orders myself (with help) via USPS and FedEx until it gets out of hand.
  - brador 14y ago
    How are you handling the printing on these? Do you plan to buy in bulk and ship out once it ends or screen print the tees yourself?
    - seekely 14y ago
      The shirts are being water/discharged printed by http://forwardprinting.com http://forwardprinting.com. A very high quality and award winning printer.
steve8918 14y ago
I saw this site last week or maybe the week before, and to be honest, I was put-off by the obnoxiousness of trying to get people to buy the "least popular" t-shirt. To me, it came across as you trying to unload your shittiest product through some clever trick. It had a Zynga-esque feel to it, and I didn't like it at all. The fact you give a clue like "this was the worst selling t-shirt in the last hour" makes me feel like you're tricking me, and I'd rather do business with someone else than risk getting played or ripped off. Sorry, but that's the feeling I get when I see this site. If you want some additional feedback: Instead of the gimmicky "you lose I win", I think you need to make it some sort of win-win type gimmick. Like the price goes down the more people buy it, and whoever buys it earlier will get some money back on their next purchase. You need to make the "game" shorter, I don't have patience to wait a week until I know if I "won". $25 is something I would pay if the t-shirts were good quality, like American Apparel, but you didn't list the manufacturer. You need a lot more designs. I was looking for the button for additional designs, but I finally figured out you only have those 5. If I hate all 5 of them, then I won't likely remember your site, and won't come back.
- seekely 14y ago
  Below in the comments, I mention I am very curious to find out if people will take buying the least popular t-shirt as a positive (I'm unique) or negative (Why would I want a trash shirt). You clearly fall in the latter category, which is very reasonable. I am very open to tweaking the game mechanics so it is perceived as a win win by everybody while still a sustainable site. The shirt and printing style are of high quality. I need to do a better job on the site emphasizing that. Sorry you did not like this week's designs. Maybe next week (or not based on your comment =p)
  - steve8918 14y ago
    The fact that you only reveal the last hourly sales, which really has zero relevance to total sales and whether or not you "win", makes it feel like a game of 3-card monte, as I mentioned in another comment. Maybe you need to be more transparent and show the total sales or the ranking. This might help show you're not trying to scam anyone. Then, it turns into something more where people can decide "do I want to buy this t-shirt in a 2-for-1 sale" since they get the next shirt free.
drharris 14y ago
I really like this. I found myself with a gradually widening smile as I realized the ramifications of the whole concept. The brilliance from the commerce standpoint is that the freebie is by definition minimized by the number of shirts sold, and a typical loser product will see more activity than usual. From a customer standpoint, you have effectively 20% chance of getting a freebie, making the perceived purchase price 80% of $25, or $20, a very reasonable price for a graphic t-shirt. However, since it's the least purchased number getting freebies, I'd expect your actual revenue to be more like $21 per shirt, thus creating profit out of thin air. Customer pays a decent marginal price (for a hopefully quality product), you get a built-in profit from the mechanics, and the game mechanics nearly guarantee a larger volume of purchases than normal. Overall, a great strategy!
jedberg 14y ago
After you do this for a while, please please release your data. I'd love to see what kind of influence the star has on things, and the variation between least popular and most popular.
- seekely 14y ago
  If I have data worth releasing (i.e. sales volume), I most certainly will. I'm very curious myself!
Professoroak 14y ago
Interesting idea! Graphic tees are a great market to do an idea like this, as well. People who have the disposition to wear a lot of graphic tees seem like the same people who would spend $25 on some generic tees just for the game aspect. Personally, id rather bargain hunt on Gilt or something for some high quality, well designed t-shirts, but im not your target audience.
Nate75Sanders 14y ago
This reminds me of the game mechanic in Puerto Rico ( http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/3076/puerto-rico http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/3076/puerto-rico ) where money accumulates on roles not chosen to incentivize people to pick that role.
jere 14y ago
Interesting, but I'm not sure I buy the "I'm unique" logic. It reminds me of "big-choosers" from the Toilet Paper Problem: http://gi.cebitec.uni-bielefeld.de/teaching/2007summer/jclub/papers/toiletPaper.pdf http://gi.cebitec.uni-bielefeld.de/teaching/2007summer/jclub... If everyone was a big-chooser, you get into a dangerous situation because rolls are being emptied at roughly the same rate. Similarly, I am led to wonder what percentage of your users will be making their choice based solely on the coupon (i.e. least popular shirt at the moment). If it's a high percentage, then each shirt should approach 20% of sales. Hardly unique at all. By the way, "Virgin" is an awesome design. Reminds me of Dali. I can't imagine opting for any of the other shirts in order to try to win a coupon.
olalonde 14y ago
Shouldn't that be "I mixed selling t-shirts with a little bit of gamification"? I don't really get the game theory angle (as in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory). Very clever idea in any case!
- saraid216 14y ago
  Gamification is the method of adding carrot/stick mechanisms to actions in order to drive behavior; it's a trivial application of game theory, which is about asking how people make decisions in (very contrived) situations.
- k2enemy 14y ago
  It actually is an interesting game (in the game theory sense). I make no claims about whether or not it is a good business idea, or how people will actually play, but a quick and incomplete theoretical analysis follows. First, some simplifications: * an infinite number of players * everyone agrees on the ordering (quality, utility, etc) of shirts * only look for symmetric equilibria (where everyone plays the same strategy) Some notation: Let there be N shirts (N=5 for this application). Order the shirts by their utility (that everyone agrees on). x1 < x2 < ... < xN. Let the utility from the bonus shirt be z, where z > xN. The most simple strategy is for everyone to randomize and put equal probability on each shirt. If everyone plays according to that strategy, then the expected payoff for any given player is avg(x1, ... , xN) + z/N. But this can't be a Nash equilibrium because an individual player could deviate and choose xN with probability 1 and get payoff xN + z/N. The (maybe not the only) Nash equilibrium is probabilities p1, p2, ..., pN such that sum(p1, p2, ..., pN)=1 and x1+p1z = x2+p2z = ... = xN+pNz. These probabilities make a player indifferent between choosing each shirt with certainty. I haven't spent the time to see if there is a nice formula for the probabilities, but for the case of N=2, you get p1=(x2-x1+z)/2z and p2=1-(x2-x1+z)/2z This doesn't take into account that people have different tastes, or the sequential information that the star creates. The game gets very complicated with these added in.
vhf 14y ago
I so wanted to buy the bicycle one for my girlfriend. When checking out my cart, it didn't allow me to choose another country than US, and I'm in Europe. Too bad for me (and for her) (and also for you, who lost a sale ;) ) Great post, great idea, though ! Keep it up !
- seekely 14y ago
  Bummer :( I would really really like to ship to Europe (and everywhere), but as a 1 man show right now, I can't logistically make that happen for some time.
  - maayank 14y ago
    Why? How is it so different?
  - pkhamre 14y ago
    I would easily pay $5-$10 extra for shipping.
bootload 14y ago
One slightly annoying thing I noticed. If I select a t-shirt ie: http://getnifty.com/market/1001/product/1002 http://getnifty.com/market/1001/product/1002 the sizes appear 0S 0M 0L 0XL which for a second till I ran the mouse over them realised it was a form selection. Can you pre-populate or add spacing?
- seekely 14y ago
  I have had the damnedest time getting the size right on those buttons. Can you tell me your device/browser/screen size?
  - bootload 14y ago
    Ubuntu, x86, unity / Moz Firefox 14.0.1 / Running at 1280x1024 (low rez).
ScottBurson 14y ago
Interesting, but my reaction is, I'll just pick my favorite (if any) and not worry about getting the special. It's not worth buying one I don't really like just because it might turn out to be free. On another note -- would really like to be able to pull up some much larger images of the shirts.
- no_more_death 14y ago
  Perhaps the gimmick is not intended for you. It's for people who always buy as cheaply as possible.
gojomo 14y ago
Does this count as a Keynesian Ugly Contest?
fingerprinter 14y ago
There are quite a few sources in this thread for quality t-shirts, but I don't wear cotton anymore. Curious if there are any t-shirt sites that sell on Nike dri-fit, Under Armour style shirts. You know the kind, moisture wicking etc. They tend to be polyester or even bamboo. My favorite at the moment is this one I got from Lids. It is AWESOME. http://www.lids.com/NCAA/Hawaii-Warriors/20304981 http://www.lids.com/NCAA/Hawaii-Warriors/20304981 I just wish I could find more! Anyone know of any sites like that? And I of course I know I'd pay a premium for that, so no worries there.
- brador 14y ago
  Why don't you wear cotton anymore? Allergies?
  - fingerprinter 14y ago
    Honestly, because I don't like 1. that they wrinkle 2. that they shrink and 3. they tend to be more uncomfortable than the others.
    - sodiumphosphate 14y ago
      And 4: they also fade. I've been wearing the same seven solid black polyester tees for the past year or so and I'm sold on them.
dlikhten 14y ago
You sick bastard!!!! Now I had to buy 5 shirts just to make sure I get my free one. How dare you! KHAAAAAAN!!!! edit: set self destruct code: kirk0001 <-- lol at complexity.
ankeshk 14y ago
I like the game mechanics. A story that comes to my mind is: there was a grocery store in London in the 1950s who didn't have the best of locations. They ran a contest: They would randomly select a half an hour time period (eg: 2.20 to 2.50pm). People who had shopped during that time on the previous day could come back with their time stamped receipts and get cash back. The store tripled their number of customers per day. This however worked because people didn't go out of their way to buy new things. They just went out of their way to buy the things they needed at a different store to get a chance to get cash back. So my suggestion is this: source out the "winning" designs on threadless etc in the past 3 months. And list those t-shirts on your website only. Don't ask your audience to submit their designs. And announce this fact. Re-assure people that they are buying the same "hot" stuff they would buy on other t-shirt sites. But they could just earn a free t-shirt too. Take away the neg that comes with the "least popular tshirt" tag.
polshaw 14y ago
I love the idea. It's really great to see something innovative here. I was almost going to say a little bit of genius, but i have a few more reservations now i have thought the idea over-- mainly that i don't think i'd see value in the 'game' (that is, saving potential) unless i really liked all the tees on offer. So that sets the proposition to me[1] as very close to any other online t-shirt retailer (would anyone suspect their favourite was going to be least liked?). BUT in the very worst case scenario, you have a fantastic marketing gimmick to drive people to the site, and keep many of them coming back perhaps. I really wish there was a 'control' to compare this to, to see what effect this has on sales- it seems it will be hard to know how much the game is driving sales vs people just liking the tees. My current feeling is the idea might function better slightly tweaked.. eg. offer the shirts at $18 normally, or $20 with the freebie game.. only count the $20 sales toward the totals.. might offer some balance-- for example, the 'better' (popular) one won't currently have a lot of appeal WRT. the game, because most will rightly assume it wouldn't be least popular. Add the tweak and there is an element of double-guessing that might make more people believe they have a chance of 'winning'? Hope that made sense.. it's not a fully worked out idea, but worth thinking about perhaps. Also, consider following OKcupid and having an onsite blog. [1] perhaps not everyone is like me (or us here), though
fileoffset 14y ago
The game theory stuff is neat but to me inconsequential. I just went to buy a really cool shirt but can't - USA shipping only :( Pity! I doubt I'll ever come back to this site.
jurre 14y ago
My hands are itching to write a scraper that checks the site every 30 minutes or so and tells me just before the countdown ends which shirt was the least popular.. What's stopping me from doing so other than not being a jerk?
- simonbrown 14y ago
  The star only tells you the least popular in the last hour. The least popular overall wouldn't necessarily be the one that received the most stars, as all the shirts are likely to be more popular at some times than others.
jdevonport 14y ago
What a fantastic idea, I am a long time customer of Threadless, TeeFury etc. You see a lot of clones springing up but you have done something really interesting and unique, will defiantly give it a go!
pkhamre 14y ago
I would really love international shipping for the tshirts.
zio99 14y ago
Uber cool concept. Time limits + freebies = good bag of tricks and sorcery. +1 for your logo.
gcr 14y ago
It might be just me, but I can't see what the shirts look like in Chrome.

171 points by seekely 14y ago

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

whiletruefork 14y ago

Adding some type of effect to show that the shirts are actively being bought (I imagine every few seconds half a shirt 'flash') would give the sale more of an active-feeling. Right now I don't feel strongly urged to make a decision right now, but rather that I could come back later. Second comment: Rather than giving away the least popular shirt, you could apply some type of variable pricing depending on when a user purchased a shirt given its popularity?

nrlucas 14y ago
Increases and Decreases like some T-Shirt Market.

seekely 14y ago

MattGrommes 14y ago
That's a heck of a cool idea, nice job! I visit a lot of t-shirt sites and my first thought was "Very clever!" which doesn't happen that often. :) My only problem is that I already have enough of a t-shirt buying habit that spending $25 per shirt isn't going to happen very often, especially when I don't know the quality of the shirts. You might add more detail on the actual shirt quality and fit. The email collection line on the homepage doesn't make it clear what kinds of emails you'll be sending. If it's a weekly (bi-weekly, whatever) showing of the new shirts I'd say something like 'Sign up for our weekly new shirt email' so it's more specific.
- seekely 14y ago
  Thanks! I have some shirt info at http://getnifty.com/shirt/info http://getnifty.com/shirt/info, but agreed it should be more prominent and detailed. And pushing out copy change to 'Sign up for weekly sale notifications' as we speak.
  - girasquid 14y ago
    I checked out the new page with the extra information, and a new question formed: why so many brands for the shirts? Typically I'm used to seeing a shirt shop just say "we print on American Apparel".
    - seekely 14y ago
      Good question and obviously not an optimal situation. Since I'm a small shop going through a third party printer, I am last in line for raw t-shirt supply. Mix in color and size availability, and it gets pretty tricky to rely on one brand. So for now, I am using a few high quality brands to make sure t-shirts get out in a timely manner.
  - pc86 14y ago
    FYI I found a typo on your FAQ page: What if I purchased the least popular t-shirt multiple times? Nice going! You will receive a coupon giving you free t-shirts in the same quanity as your purchase of the least popular t-shirt.

fudged71 14y ago

On first glance, I feel like people would simply choose the shirt that they think looks the least fashionable, which just leads to regrettable purchases.

seekely 14y ago
I do not want people making regrettable purchases, so I will play around with the concept if that's the impression I get from buyers. I am very curious to find out if people will take buying the least popular t-shirt as a positive 'i'm unique' or negative 'i suck'.
- fudged71 14y ago
  It would be very interesting to see how people use the site.
polshaw 14y ago
I'm curious.. would you do that if you were buying? I'll admit i had a think about which it might be, but then i think if i was going to put $20 down on buying one, I would just buy the one i wanted, and take any freebies as a bonus. FWIW, my money is on #2. I only just realised they were all from photoshop, and i've used it quite a bit. It's also far too long for a 'geek humour' t-shirt- no one would read the whole thing, let alone understand it. Add to that a 'lovers' connotation which would limit the appeal even further. But coming back to your point; I don't think i'd want it. So, IMO, for this to have value for me, I would need to like all the t-shirts. (FWIW, i like 1/3/5). e: also, yes.. needs bigger images.. can't even read the whole thing on the modelled PS tee image, not good!

citricsquid 14y ago

I like the idea, but I have the feeling your t-shirts are overpriced. I had what you could call a t-shirt problem, I purchased over 150 in the space of a year, anyway one common thing I noticed is that a brand (eg: Threadless, Bustedtees) that sold based on merit and not gimmick could sell at a much higher price than somewhere that was relatively unknown or sold based on some sort of gimmick. For example teefury.com is a site that does a sort of similar thing to you with time based sales, they sell at around $10 each but would never do well at $25 each. My (anecdotal -- myself and friends) understanding of why people aren't comfortable spending $25 on a time-sale t-shirt is that you're selling selling based on 2 things, the t-shirt itself and the idea that it's time-exclusive, this adds pressure. If I purchase a t-shirt from somewhere like Threadless I know it's likely if I wait 2 weeks it's going to be there still, so I don't feel like "I must buy now!" and then I don't feel like I'm paying for something I might not want in a week, whereas if I see a t-shirt on your site with 1 day to go: "That t-shirt is cool! Hmm, but I have to buy it right now... and $25 is a premium t-shirt price... I might not like it in a few days... I'll skip". This behaviour is especially so with the added idea that I'm possibly buying a t-shirt nobody else likes, it makes me think maybe it's just a crappy t-shirt. Your site is a site that customers would constantly be coming back to, so while you might not make such a good margin on a $12.50 shirt vs. a $25 shirt, it would be made up for in the average customer purchasing 20 shirts a year vs. 5 if they had to be considerate about their purchases. I'm not sure if I explained that well, if not I can try and re-word it.

seekely 14y ago
As a very frequent t-shirt purchaser myself, the reason sites like TeeFury (which I love) do not sell at $25 is because their t-shirt quality, design, and printing style is not anywhere near as nice as Threadless or DesignByHumans. I am hoping Nifty will earn a reputation more like the latter sites than the former. With that in mind, I will definitely test price points and appreciate the perspective from a fellow t-shirt buyer.
- citricsquid 14y ago
  That's true (re: quality), I've spent $50 on a few t-shirts from my favourite quality companies (http://jinx.com http://jinx.com t-shirts wear like a dream) An idea that might fit with your site would be to offer a shirt of the month deal (bustedtees example: http://www.bustedtees.com/shirtofthemonth http://www.bustedtees.com/shirtofthemonth). $200 upfront for 12 months of shirts (works out at about $13/m), every third week of the month you generate a random shirt for me from that weeks shirts and if that shirt matches the least popular I also get a bonus shirt (fits with the theme of the main weekly sale) or maybe if I am a subscriber I get double the chance of a bonus shirt (maybe least popular and most popular or least popular and second least popular) or something. You could even do it like a loss leader type deal, have a yearly subscription for $100 (which would be ridiculously low and pull lots of people in) and then use the marketing from that (people telling their friends about the cool shirt that just arrived, tweeting about it etc. every month). Although I guess as you're doing t-shirts on demand there's probably not much financial outlay so cash up front might not be worth potentially losing profits. If your shirt quality is good (I'm going to order a shirt later to find out) then I'd sign up to that sort of deal ($200, or $100) without a second thought because there's nothing better than getting a surprise t-shirt.

chrispatton 14y ago

I'm friends with seekely, and we have gone back and forth about the idea of framing the "winner" as the "least popular", which as a negative connotation, vs. using terminology like "unique", which has a more positive connotation. It could be that by using the more negative language, people would believe that the free t-shirt is a consolation prize for having bad taste, as opposed to being excited about being special somehow. However, it's a completely subjective assessment in either direction. What did you all get as a first impression (or did it even register with you in that way)?

polshaw 14y ago
My take would be that i DGAF if other people on the internet/US share my taste in t-shirts. My sole concern in that area would be geared towards wanting a free one. Personally, I wouldn't buy one I wouldn't be happy to pay the full price for, and of course my brain sees it as very unlikely that this would be the least popular. Also, it seems a poor gamble to go for one I like less on the hope that I might get another free. So if i picked the least popular, my reaction would just be 'bonus, free tee!' (i wouldn't have any feeling of 'special unique little flower', either). As for the language specifically, firstly, 'least popular' is functional. It tells me exactly what you are talking about. If i read 'most unique' i would have no idea how you were measuring that, and would probably feel uneasy about it-- like you were using the phrase as cover to pick whatever you wanted to. (Which is funny, since 'least popular' is already the best financial option for yous!). Secondly, it doesn't seem too negative to me (compare 'least awesome' vs 'worst'). That is for the landing page (and if any commiseration email), anyway. As far as congratulatory email, I would probably agree to frame it as 'most unique'. Hope that helps!.. I know how difficult it can be to get basic perspective when you are too involved with something.

stefanobernardi 14y ago

Cool idea, agree with the comment about regrettable purchases so I think you need to figure something out for that. I think there's a lot of space to apply game theory / gamification in e-commerce. Still need to get a clear understanding on the regulatory framework for this. Also, which fulfillment service are you using? Good luck!

seekely 14y ago
I am fulfilling the orders myself (with help) via USPS and FedEx until it gets out of hand.
- brador 14y ago
  How are you handling the printing on these? Do you plan to buy in bulk and ship out once it ends or screen print the tees yourself?
  - seekely 14y ago
    The shirts are being water/discharged printed by http://forwardprinting.com http://forwardprinting.com. A very high quality and award winning printer.

steve8918 14y ago

I saw this site last week or maybe the week before, and to be honest, I was put-off by the obnoxiousness of trying to get people to buy the "least popular" t-shirt. To me, it came across as you trying to unload your shittiest product through some clever trick. It had a Zynga-esque feel to it, and I didn't like it at all. The fact you give a clue like "this was the worst selling t-shirt in the last hour" makes me feel like you're tricking me, and I'd rather do business with someone else than risk getting played or ripped off. Sorry, but that's the feeling I get when I see this site. If you want some additional feedback: Instead of the gimmicky "you lose I win", I think you need to make it some sort of win-win type gimmick. Like the price goes down the more people buy it, and whoever buys it earlier will get some money back on their next purchase. You need to make the "game" shorter, I don't have patience to wait a week until I know if I "won". $25 is something I would pay if the t-shirts were good quality, like American Apparel, but you didn't list the manufacturer. You need a lot more designs. I was looking for the button for additional designs, but I finally figured out you only have those 5. If I hate all 5 of them, then I won't likely remember your site, and won't come back.

seekely 14y ago
Below in the comments, I mention I am very curious to find out if people will take buying the least popular t-shirt as a positive (I'm unique) or negative (Why would I want a trash shirt). You clearly fall in the latter category, which is very reasonable. I am very open to tweaking the game mechanics so it is perceived as a win win by everybody while still a sustainable site. The shirt and printing style are of high quality. I need to do a better job on the site emphasizing that. Sorry you did not like this week's designs. Maybe next week (or not based on your comment =p)
- steve8918 14y ago
  The fact that you only reveal the last hourly sales, which really has zero relevance to total sales and whether or not you "win", makes it feel like a game of 3-card monte, as I mentioned in another comment. Maybe you need to be more transparent and show the total sales or the ranking. This might help show you're not trying to scam anyone. Then, it turns into something more where people can decide "do I want to buy this t-shirt in a 2-for-1 sale" since they get the next shirt free.

drharris 14y ago

I really like this. I found myself with a gradually widening smile as I realized the ramifications of the whole concept. The brilliance from the commerce standpoint is that the freebie is by definition minimized by the number of shirts sold, and a typical loser product will see more activity than usual. From a customer standpoint, you have effectively 20% chance of getting a freebie, making the perceived purchase price 80% of $25, or $20, a very reasonable price for a graphic t-shirt. However, since it's the least purchased number getting freebies, I'd expect your actual revenue to be more like $21 per shirt, thus creating profit out of thin air. Customer pays a decent marginal price (for a hopefully quality product), you get a built-in profit from the mechanics, and the game mechanics nearly guarantee a larger volume of purchases than normal. Overall, a great strategy!

jedberg 14y ago

After you do this for a while, please please release your data. I'd love to see what kind of influence the star has on things, and the variation between least popular and most popular.

seekely 14y ago
If I have data worth releasing (i.e. sales volume), I most certainly will. I'm very curious myself!

Professoroak 14y ago

Interesting idea! Graphic tees are a great market to do an idea like this, as well. People who have the disposition to wear a lot of graphic tees seem like the same people who would spend $25 on some generic tees just for the game aspect. Personally, id rather bargain hunt on Gilt or something for some high quality, well designed t-shirts, but im not your target audience.

Nate75Sanders 14y ago

This reminds me of the game mechanic in Puerto Rico ( http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/3076/puerto-rico http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/3076/puerto-rico ) where money accumulates on roles not chosen to incentivize people to pick that role.

jere 14y ago

Interesting, but I'm not sure I buy the "I'm unique" logic. It reminds me of "big-choosers" from the Toilet Paper Problem: http://gi.cebitec.uni-bielefeld.de/teaching/2007summer/jclub/papers/toiletPaper.pdf http://gi.cebitec.uni-bielefeld.de/teaching/2007summer/jclub... If everyone was a big-chooser, you get into a dangerous situation because rolls are being emptied at roughly the same rate. Similarly, I am led to wonder what percentage of your users will be making their choice based solely on the coupon (i.e. least popular shirt at the moment). If it's a high percentage, then each shirt should approach 20% of sales. Hardly unique at all. By the way, "Virgin" is an awesome design. Reminds me of Dali. I can't imagine opting for any of the other shirts in order to try to win a coupon.

olalonde 14y ago

Shouldn't that be "I mixed selling t-shirts with a little bit of gamification"? I don't really get the game theory angle (as in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory). Very clever idea in any case!

saraid216 14y ago
Gamification is the method of adding carrot/stick mechanisms to actions in order to drive behavior; it's a trivial application of game theory, which is about asking how people make decisions in (very contrived) situations.
k2enemy 14y ago
It actually is an interesting game (in the game theory sense). I make no claims about whether or not it is a good business idea, or how people will actually play, but a quick and incomplete theoretical analysis follows. First, some simplifications: * an infinite number of players * everyone agrees on the ordering (quality, utility, etc) of shirts * only look for symmetric equilibria (where everyone plays the same strategy) Some notation: Let there be N shirts (N=5 for this application). Order the shirts by their utility (that everyone agrees on). x1 < x2 < ... < xN. Let the utility from the bonus shirt be z, where z > xN. The most simple strategy is for everyone to randomize and put equal probability on each shirt. If everyone plays according to that strategy, then the expected payoff for any given player is avg(x1, ... , xN) + z/N. But this can't be a Nash equilibrium because an individual player could deviate and choose xN with probability 1 and get payoff xN + z/N. The (maybe not the only) Nash equilibrium is probabilities p1, p2, ..., pN such that sum(p1, p2, ..., pN)=1 and x1+p1z = x2+p2z = ... = xN+pNz. These probabilities make a player indifferent between choosing each shirt with certainty. I haven't spent the time to see if there is a nice formula for the probabilities, but for the case of N=2, you get p1=(x2-x1+z)/2z and p2=1-(x2-x1+z)/2z This doesn't take into account that people have different tastes, or the sequential information that the star creates. The game gets very complicated with these added in.

vhf 14y ago

I so wanted to buy the bicycle one for my girlfriend. When checking out my cart, it didn't allow me to choose another country than US, and I'm in Europe. Too bad for me (and for her) (and also for you, who lost a sale ;) ) Great post, great idea, though ! Keep it up !

seekely 14y ago
Bummer :( I would really really like to ship to Europe (and everywhere), but as a 1 man show right now, I can't logistically make that happen for some time.
- maayank 14y ago
  Why? How is it so different?
- pkhamre 14y ago
  I would easily pay $5-$10 extra for shipping.

bootload 14y ago

One slightly annoying thing I noticed. If I select a t-shirt ie: http://getnifty.com/market/1001/product/1002 http://getnifty.com/market/1001/product/1002 the sizes appear 0S 0M 0L 0XL which for a second till I ran the mouse over them realised it was a form selection. Can you pre-populate or add spacing?

seekely 14y ago
I have had the damnedest time getting the size right on those buttons. Can you tell me your device/browser/screen size?
- bootload 14y ago
  Ubuntu, x86, unity / Moz Firefox 14.0.1 / Running at 1280x1024 (low rez).

ScottBurson 14y ago

Interesting, but my reaction is, I'll just pick my favorite (if any) and not worry about getting the special. It's not worth buying one I don't really like just because it might turn out to be free. On another note -- would really like to be able to pull up some much larger images of the shirts.

no_more_death 14y ago
Perhaps the gimmick is not intended for you. It's for people who always buy as cheaply as possible.

gojomo 14y ago

Does this count as a Keynesian Ugly Contest?

fingerprinter 14y ago

There are quite a few sources in this thread for quality t-shirts, but I don't wear cotton anymore. Curious if there are any t-shirt sites that sell on Nike dri-fit, Under Armour style shirts. You know the kind, moisture wicking etc. They tend to be polyester or even bamboo. My favorite at the moment is this one I got from Lids. It is AWESOME. http://www.lids.com/NCAA/Hawaii-Warriors/20304981 http://www.lids.com/NCAA/Hawaii-Warriors/20304981 I just wish I could find more! Anyone know of any sites like that? And I of course I know I'd pay a premium for that, so no worries there.

brador 14y ago
Why don't you wear cotton anymore? Allergies?
- fingerprinter 14y ago
  Honestly, because I don't like 1. that they wrinkle 2. that they shrink and 3. they tend to be more uncomfortable than the others.
  - sodiumphosphate 14y ago
    And 4: they also fade. I've been wearing the same seven solid black polyester tees for the past year or so and I'm sold on them.

dlikhten 14y ago

You sick bastard!!!! Now I had to buy 5 shirts just to make sure I get my free one. How dare you! KHAAAAAAN!!!! edit: set self destruct code: kirk0001 <-- lol at complexity.

ankeshk 14y ago

I like the game mechanics. A story that comes to my mind is: there was a grocery store in London in the 1950s who didn't have the best of locations. They ran a contest: They would randomly select a half an hour time period (eg: 2.20 to 2.50pm). People who had shopped during that time on the previous day could come back with their time stamped receipts and get cash back. The store tripled their number of customers per day. This however worked because people didn't go out of their way to buy new things. They just went out of their way to buy the things they needed at a different store to get a chance to get cash back. So my suggestion is this: source out the "winning" designs on threadless etc in the past 3 months. And list those t-shirts on your website only. Don't ask your audience to submit their designs. And announce this fact. Re-assure people that they are buying the same "hot" stuff they would buy on other t-shirt sites. But they could just earn a free t-shirt too. Take away the neg that comes with the "least popular tshirt" tag.

polshaw 14y ago

I love the idea. It's really great to see something innovative here. I was almost going to say a little bit of genius, but i have a few more reservations now i have thought the idea over-- mainly that i don't think i'd see value in the 'game' (that is, saving potential) unless i really liked all the tees on offer. So that sets the proposition to me[1] as very close to any other online t-shirt retailer (would anyone suspect their favourite was going to be least liked?). BUT in the very worst case scenario, you have a fantastic marketing gimmick to drive people to the site, and keep many of them coming back perhaps. I really wish there was a 'control' to compare this to, to see what effect this has on sales- it seems it will be hard to know how much the game is driving sales vs people just liking the tees. My current feeling is the idea might function better slightly tweaked.. eg. offer the shirts at $18 normally, or $20 with the freebie game.. only count the $20 sales toward the totals.. might offer some balance-- for example, the 'better' (popular) one won't currently have a lot of appeal WRT. the game, because most will rightly assume it wouldn't be least popular. Add the tweak and there is an element of double-guessing that might make more people believe they have a chance of 'winning'? Hope that made sense.. it's not a fully worked out idea, but worth thinking about perhaps. Also, consider following OKcupid and having an onsite blog. [1] perhaps not everyone is like me (or us here), though

fileoffset 14y ago

The game theory stuff is neat but to me inconsequential. I just went to buy a really cool shirt but can't - USA shipping only :( Pity! I doubt I'll ever come back to this site.

jurre 14y ago

My hands are itching to write a scraper that checks the site every 30 minutes or so and tells me just before the countdown ends which shirt was the least popular.. What's stopping me from doing so other than not being a jerk?

simonbrown 14y ago
The star only tells you the least popular in the last hour. The least popular overall wouldn't necessarily be the one that received the most stars, as all the shirts are likely to be more popular at some times than others.

jdevonport 14y ago

What a fantastic idea, I am a long time customer of Threadless, TeeFury etc. You see a lot of clones springing up but you have done something really interesting and unique, will defiantly give it a go!

pkhamre 14y ago

I would really love international shipping for the tshirts.

zio99 14y ago

Uber cool concept. Time limits + freebies = good bag of tricks and sorcery. +1 for your logo.

gcr 14y ago

It might be just me, but I can't see what the shirts look like in Chrome.