6 ms·

> every other browser You can just say Chromium

by somethingor 1y ago

zymhan 1y ago
Safari exists, and is quite popular.
- thayne 1y ago
  Safari only exist on Apple devices, and generally had even less features than Firefox.
  - skrtskrt 1y ago
    Kagi is starting to build their Orion browser which is WebKit-based for Linux as of this year. I never do anything close enough to the browser engine to know, but apparently devs like WebKit a lot?
    - toyg 1y ago
      Devs like WebKit because it's easy to integrate in non-browsers.
      - skrtskrt 1y ago
        Like for desktop apps? I guess this differs fundamentally from Chromium in that... you do not run the "entire" browser like in Electron?
        fkfyshroglk 1y ago
        I thought that electron == chrome
      - fkfyshroglk 1y ago
        ...is there a better reason to like webkit? Chromium certainly doesn't make effort to seem appealing to developers outside of its association with WebKit.
    - thesuitonym 1y ago
      Since when? I don't see any mention on the blog, and the FAQ still says they're not targeting anything other than MacOS. https://help.kagi.com/orion/faq/faq.html#other_os_support https://help.kagi.com/orion/faq/faq.html#other_os_support
      - skrtskrt 1y ago
        It was officially announced late February/early March I believe: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43302073 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43302073
    - alabastervlog 1y ago
      I used a really low-end system for a while some time back, running Linux, and WebKit-based browsers were the only ones with a mainstream (so: actually renders correctly for practically all sites) engine that was usable with even one tab open (I could do 2-3 as long as none of the pages were “webapps”) This indicates some kind of fundamentally better design, to me. Probably related to why Safari’s by far the most respectful to battery life, of the big three browsers.
  - skywhopper 1y ago
    Not sure how this contradicts the fact that Safari is quite popular.
  - homebrewer 1y ago
    Going purely by (mis)feature count, I'd say they're pretty similar: https://caniuse.com/?compare=chrome+136,safari+18.5,firefox+138&compareCats=all https://caniuse.com/?compare=chrome+136,safari+18.5,firefox+...
  - fkfyshroglk 1y ago
    Sure, but fewer (sic) features is mostly a better state of affairs, and apple devices are mostly what matter if you're catering to rich westerners (as most products on this forum try to do). To me, chromium only matters so much as I am forced to care by being employed. It offers very little to me outside of being necessary to enable the "blur" background on my video chats and offers a very shitty corporate UX.
    - nickthegreek 1y ago
      you can blur the background now at OS level on macOS from the menu bar.
  - IIsi50MHz 1y ago
    However, WebKit exists elsewhere. On mobile, I somewhat like Sleipnir browser for various configurable UI niceties unrelated to WebKit. I like the way it displays tabs as a scrolling strip of buttons, instead of making me open a "manage tabs" UI. I configured a different user-agent string[1] to make some sites happy or to get some sites to neither force a dumbed-down "mobile view" nor spam demands that I use their mobile apps. It has a small selection of plugins/extensions, mostly written by users. Occasionally, a captcha will get stuck in a loop, so I'll have to try Opera[2] or Firefox. Or a Google site will sometimes refuse logins. . o O ( I don't bother with Sleipnir on desktop, because it's buggy, quixotic, and nothing like the mobile version. ) [1] There's an optional UI button for switching UA string among Sleipnir's desktop or mobile ones, or your own custom string. [2] The only mobile browser I've tried that can always convince a site to load is desktop view. Some Google sites try Very HardTM to force a mobile experience.
  - lxgr 1y ago
    Apple devices make up over half of all visitors in some markets/segments. Update: Downvoted for facts, stay classy, HN!
    - thayne 1y ago
      So what? For many people, having to buy new hardware to use it means it isn't a viable alternative browser.
      - lxgr 1y ago
        My point was more that it's hard to ignore as a publisher due to its user base, less that it's a viable alternative as a user.
  - 0x0 1y ago
    > Safari only exist on Apple devices Webkit, at least, builds on a lot more platforms than you think. Take a look at https://build.webkit.org/#/builders https://build.webkit.org/#/builders I'm seeing at least three other MAJOR platforms: • GTK-Linux-64-bit-Release-Build • PlayStation-Release-Build • Windows-64-bit-Release-Build
    - epolanski 1y ago
      WebKit 100% exists on Windows and Linux, Microsoft builds it under the playwright project. I use it occasionally, only for debugging purposes though.
    - creatonez 1y ago
      And just a tip, if you don't have any Apple devices but need to test a bug/inconsistency being reported by Safari users, you can usually use GNOME Web (Epiphany) and the same behavior will usually manifest, since it is a true Webkit browser. It also includes the Web Inspector with the exact same interface as Safari. And it's not super outdated or anything like that, it tracks Webkit quite well nowadays. It's a bit ironic that Webkit started as KHTML, a component of KDE, but eventually made its way to GNOME when a Gecko-based Epiphany became hard to maintain.
  - SSLy 1y ago
    WebKit also exists on Linux, albeit not as good as on Darwin.
- isodev 1y ago
  Unfortunately, Safari is also pivoting towards ads in the form of “Help Apple to…”, services and that thing AI companies now call Personal Context. It’s not a bad browser just you wouldn’t pick it for privacy.
- pjmlp 1y ago
  Safari is the only reason we don't rename (yet) Web as ChromeOS development platform. Thanks everyone, especially all those Electron crap apps.
  - criddell 1y ago
    I think once Apple is forced to allow alternative browsers on the iPhone and iPad, Chrome/Chromium will have won the browser wars. At least Google is a better steward of their browser than Microsoft was with IE6.
    - NoMoreNicksLeft 1y ago
      >At least Google is a better steward of their browser than Microsoft was with IE6. The only lesson Google took from the Microsoft browser monopoly was "make sure the browser doesn't suck ass". So, Chromium will continue to be technically competent, enough that they can lull people to sleep and mine their personal data in ways that should horrify us all. Whatever else Microsoft was, it wasn't a gigantic advertising company that wants to spam us with borderline-scam sales efforts.
      - MaxBarraclough 1y ago
        > Whatever else Microsoft was, it wasn't a gigantic advertising company that wants to spam us with borderline-scam sales efforts. True at the time, but spam is now baked into Windows. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/08/windows-11-has-made-the-clean-windows-install-an-oxymoron/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/08/windows-11-has-made-... (discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37208219 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37208219 )
    - EasyMark 1y ago
      That's not going to happen in the USA. at least not in the next several years. I think as long as that's true Safari dominance on iOS will continue.
      - 1y ago
shiomiru 1y ago
I was curious what "view transitions" are even about: https://www.w3.org/TR/css-view-transitions-1/ https://www.w3.org/TR/css-view-transitions-1/ It's yet another 2.8k line specification solely authored by Google employees, introducing a brand new complexity monster (clones of ghost elements represented as a pseudo-element tree) to... make it easier to add fancy animations. Now what I really miss is a "disable CSS animations" button. I find them very distracting and an unnecessary burden on battery life.
- nsonha 1y ago
  That is the generic way to implememt transitions. Alternative is playing css artist and handwrite every single animation. It is also complex. I hate css animations too btw.

> every other browser You can just say Chromium

zymhan 1y ago

Safari exists, and is quite popular.

thayne 1y ago
Safari only exist on Apple devices, and generally had even less features than Firefox.
- skrtskrt 1y ago
  Kagi is starting to build their Orion browser which is WebKit-based for Linux as of this year. I never do anything close enough to the browser engine to know, but apparently devs like WebKit a lot?
  - toyg 1y ago
    Devs like WebKit because it's easy to integrate in non-browsers.
    - skrtskrt 1y ago
      Like for desktop apps? I guess this differs fundamentally from Chromium in that... you do not run the "entire" browser like in Electron?
      - fkfyshroglk 1y ago
        I thought that electron == chrome
    - fkfyshroglk 1y ago
      ...is there a better reason to like webkit? Chromium certainly doesn't make effort to seem appealing to developers outside of its association with WebKit.
  - thesuitonym 1y ago
    Since when? I don't see any mention on the blog, and the FAQ still says they're not targeting anything other than MacOS. https://help.kagi.com/orion/faq/faq.html#other_os_support https://help.kagi.com/orion/faq/faq.html#other_os_support
    - skrtskrt 1y ago
      It was officially announced late February/early March I believe: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43302073 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43302073
  - alabastervlog 1y ago
    I used a really low-end system for a while some time back, running Linux, and WebKit-based browsers were the only ones with a mainstream (so: actually renders correctly for practically all sites) engine that was usable with even one tab open (I could do 2-3 as long as none of the pages were “webapps”) This indicates some kind of fundamentally better design, to me. Probably related to why Safari’s by far the most respectful to battery life, of the big three browsers.
- skywhopper 1y ago
  Not sure how this contradicts the fact that Safari is quite popular.
- homebrewer 1y ago
  Going purely by (mis)feature count, I'd say they're pretty similar: https://caniuse.com/?compare=chrome+136,safari+18.5,firefox+138&compareCats=all https://caniuse.com/?compare=chrome+136,safari+18.5,firefox+...
- fkfyshroglk 1y ago
  Sure, but fewer (sic) features is mostly a better state of affairs, and apple devices are mostly what matter if you're catering to rich westerners (as most products on this forum try to do). To me, chromium only matters so much as I am forced to care by being employed. It offers very little to me outside of being necessary to enable the "blur" background on my video chats and offers a very shitty corporate UX.
  - nickthegreek 1y ago
    you can blur the background now at OS level on macOS from the menu bar.
- IIsi50MHz 1y ago
  However, WebKit exists elsewhere. On mobile, I somewhat like Sleipnir browser for various configurable UI niceties unrelated to WebKit. I like the way it displays tabs as a scrolling strip of buttons, instead of making me open a "manage tabs" UI. I configured a different user-agent string[1] to make some sites happy or to get some sites to neither force a dumbed-down "mobile view" nor spam demands that I use their mobile apps. It has a small selection of plugins/extensions, mostly written by users. Occasionally, a captcha will get stuck in a loop, so I'll have to try Opera[2] or Firefox. Or a Google site will sometimes refuse logins. . o O ( I don't bother with Sleipnir on desktop, because it's buggy, quixotic, and nothing like the mobile version. ) [1] There's an optional UI button for switching UA string among Sleipnir's desktop or mobile ones, or your own custom string. [2] The only mobile browser I've tried that can always convince a site to load is desktop view. Some Google sites try Very HardTM to force a mobile experience.
- lxgr 1y ago
  Apple devices make up over half of all visitors in some markets/segments. Update: Downvoted for facts, stay classy, HN!
  - thayne 1y ago
    So what? For many people, having to buy new hardware to use it means it isn't a viable alternative browser.
    - lxgr 1y ago
      My point was more that it's hard to ignore as a publisher due to its user base, less that it's a viable alternative as a user.
- 0x0 1y ago
  > Safari only exist on Apple devices Webkit, at least, builds on a lot more platforms than you think. Take a look at https://build.webkit.org/#/builders https://build.webkit.org/#/builders I'm seeing at least three other MAJOR platforms: • GTK-Linux-64-bit-Release-Build • PlayStation-Release-Build • Windows-64-bit-Release-Build
  - epolanski 1y ago
    WebKit 100% exists on Windows and Linux, Microsoft builds it under the playwright project. I use it occasionally, only for debugging purposes though.
  - creatonez 1y ago
    And just a tip, if you don't have any Apple devices but need to test a bug/inconsistency being reported by Safari users, you can usually use GNOME Web (Epiphany) and the same behavior will usually manifest, since it is a true Webkit browser. It also includes the Web Inspector with the exact same interface as Safari. And it's not super outdated or anything like that, it tracks Webkit quite well nowadays. It's a bit ironic that Webkit started as KHTML, a component of KDE, but eventually made its way to GNOME when a Gecko-based Epiphany became hard to maintain.
- SSLy 1y ago
  WebKit also exists on Linux, albeit not as good as on Darwin.
isodev 1y ago
Unfortunately, Safari is also pivoting towards ads in the form of “Help Apple to…”, services and that thing AI companies now call Personal Context. It’s not a bad browser just you wouldn’t pick it for privacy.
pjmlp 1y ago
Safari is the only reason we don't rename (yet) Web as ChromeOS development platform. Thanks everyone, especially all those Electron crap apps.
- criddell 1y ago
  I think once Apple is forced to allow alternative browsers on the iPhone and iPad, Chrome/Chromium will have won the browser wars. At least Google is a better steward of their browser than Microsoft was with IE6.
  - NoMoreNicksLeft 1y ago
    >At least Google is a better steward of their browser than Microsoft was with IE6. The only lesson Google took from the Microsoft browser monopoly was "make sure the browser doesn't suck ass". So, Chromium will continue to be technically competent, enough that they can lull people to sleep and mine their personal data in ways that should horrify us all. Whatever else Microsoft was, it wasn't a gigantic advertising company that wants to spam us with borderline-scam sales efforts.
    - MaxBarraclough 1y ago
      > Whatever else Microsoft was, it wasn't a gigantic advertising company that wants to spam us with borderline-scam sales efforts. True at the time, but spam is now baked into Windows. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/08/windows-11-has-made-the-clean-windows-install-an-oxymoron/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/08/windows-11-has-made-... (discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37208219 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37208219 )
  - EasyMark 1y ago
    That's not going to happen in the USA. at least not in the next several years. I think as long as that's true Safari dominance on iOS will continue.
    - 1y ago

shiomiru 1y ago

I was curious what "view transitions" are even about: https://www.w3.org/TR/css-view-transitions-1/ https://www.w3.org/TR/css-view-transitions-1/ It's yet another 2.8k line specification solely authored by Google employees, introducing a brand new complexity monster (clones of ghost elements represented as a pseudo-element tree) to... make it easier to add fancy animations. Now what I really miss is a "disable CSS animations" button. I find them very distracting and an unnecessary burden on battery life.

nsonha 1y ago
That is the generic way to implememt transitions. Alternative is playing css artist and handwrite every single animation. It is also complex. I hate css animations too btw.