6 ms·

Do you have the pixie dust needed to make enough of them at a reasonable price?

by dapf 1y ago

Schiendelman 1y ago
It's less pixie dust than nuclear capacity - the cheapest additional nuclear capacity costs more than the most expensive grid scale batteries.
- chickenbig 1y ago
  > the cheapest additional nuclear capacity costs more than the most expensive grid scale batteries. Nuclear capacity and grid batteries do different things, so the word capacity is rather too imprecise. Otherwise one could argue that a lightning rod has higher capacity and is cheaper than a battery.
  - ViewTrick1002 1y ago
    Let’s look at Vogtle. With Vogtles $36.9B we are able to build the equivalent supply in renewables (in TWh) and 10 days of storage at Vogtles 2.2 GWe output. Spending nuclear money on storage leads to the same thing. And it puts in context just have horrifically expensive new built western nuclear power is.
    - chickenbig 1y ago
      > With Vogtles $36.9B we are able to build the equivalent supply in renewables (in TWh) and 10 days of storage at Vogtles 2.2 GWe output. I can't see what you are proposing to do with the $36.9B. How does this break down into GW of wind and solar and GW (and GWh) of storage?
      - ViewTrick1002 1y ago
        Lets compare the $36.9B [1] spent on Vogtle with the same money spent on renewables and storage: Batteries: - $63/kWh [2] installed and serviced for 20 years = $0.063B per GWh Large-scale solar: - A range of $850-$1400/kW [3] = $0.85B - $1.4B per GW - Capacity factor of 15-30% Say $1B per GW and 20% for easy round numbers. Large-scale onshore wind: - $1300 - $1900/kW [3] = $1.3B - $1.9B per GW - Capacity factor 30-55% So say $1.5B/GW and a capacity factor of 40%. Nuclear power has a capacity factor of ~85% so to match Vogtle's new reactors we need to get to 2.234 GW * 0.85 = 1.9 GW Solar power: - 1.9/0.2 = 9.5 GW solar power = $9.5B Wind power: - 1.9/0.4 = 4.75 GW wind power = $9B Compared to Vogtle's $37B we have $28B left to spend on batteries. - $28B/$0.063B = 444 GWh 444 GWh is the equivalent to running Vogtle for.... 444 GWh/1.9 GW = 233 hours or 9.8 days. This even ignores nuclear powers O&M costs which are quite substantial. By not having to pay the O&M costs and instead saving them each year after about 20 years we have enough to rebuild the renewable plant. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vogtle_Electric_Generating_Plant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vogtle_Electric_Generating_Pla... [2]: https://www.ess-news.com/2025/01/15/chinas-cgn-new-energy-announces-winning-bidders-in-10-gwh-bess-tender/ https://www.ess-news.com/2025/01/15/chinas-cgn-new-energy-an... [3]: https://www.lazard.com/media/gjyffoqd/lazards-lcoeplus-june-2024.pdf https://www.lazard.com/media/gjyffoqd/lazards-lcoeplus-june-...
        chickenbig 1y ago
        Thank you for providing numbers that guide your thinking. > - $63/kWh [2] installed and serviced for 20 years = $0.063B per GWh The Lazard source does provide costs for storage on page 44, ranging from about 3x to 6x the cost of that Chinese tender process. Using these numbers gives a rather different picture with storage of between 3.25 days and 1.6 days, insufficient to make solar really work. Alternatively the fair comparison would be within China. Another data-point would be the UAE's attempt to firm solar; $6B for 1GW effective baseload output with 18GWh of storage [1]. So the cost of Vogtle could buy 6 of these, providing perhaps 3 or 4 days worth of storage. [1] https://www.renewableinstitute.org/uae-unveils-6-billion-groundbreaking-24-7-renewable-energy-facility/ https://www.renewableinstitute.org/uae-unveils-6-billion-gro...
matthewdgreen 1y ago
The Pixie dust is called China. BNEF is tracking 7.9 TWh of annual battery manufacturing capacity for the end of 2025 [1]. Chinese manufacturers' all-in costs for BESS are now down to $66/kWh and still dropping [2]. We (or at least China) have crossed the "knee" of the exponential for battery production, and loads of people don't seem to realize this. [1] https://about.bnef.com/blog/china-already-makes-as-many-batteries-as-the-entire-world-wants/ https://about.bnef.com/blog/china-already-makes-as-many-batt... [2] https://cleantechnica.com/2024/12/24/what-are-the-implications-of-66-kwh-battery-packs-in-china/ https://cleantechnica.com/2024/12/24/what-are-the-implicatio...
barbazoo 1y ago
The term is technology agnostic, just fyi. There are many ways to store energy.

Do you have the pixie dust needed to make enough of them at a reasonable price?

by dapf 1y ago

Do you have the pixie dust needed to make enough of them at a reasonable price?

It's less pixie dust than nuclear capacity - the cheapest additional nuclear capacity costs more than the most expensive grid scale batteries.

chickenbig 1y ago
> the cheapest additional nuclear capacity costs more than the most expensive grid scale batteries. Nuclear capacity and grid batteries do different things, so the word capacity is rather too imprecise. Otherwise one could argue that a lightning rod has higher capacity and is cheaper than a battery.
- ViewTrick1002 1y ago
  Let’s look at Vogtle. With Vogtles $36.9B we are able to build the equivalent supply in renewables (in TWh) and 10 days of storage at Vogtles 2.2 GWe output. Spending nuclear money on storage leads to the same thing. And it puts in context just have horrifically expensive new built western nuclear power is.
  - chickenbig 1y ago
    > With Vogtles $36.9B we are able to build the equivalent supply in renewables (in TWh) and 10 days of storage at Vogtles 2.2 GWe output. I can't see what you are proposing to do with the $36.9B. How does this break down into GW of wind and solar and GW (and GWh) of storage?
    - ViewTrick1002 1y ago
      Lets compare the $36.9B [1] spent on Vogtle with the same money spent on renewables and storage: Batteries: - $63/kWh [2] installed and serviced for 20 years = $0.063B per GWh Large-scale solar: - A range of $850-$1400/kW [3] = $0.85B - $1.4B per GW - Capacity factor of 15-30% Say $1B per GW and 20% for easy round numbers. Large-scale onshore wind: - $1300 - $1900/kW [3] = $1.3B - $1.9B per GW - Capacity factor 30-55% So say $1.5B/GW and a capacity factor of 40%. Nuclear power has a capacity factor of ~85% so to match Vogtle's new reactors we need to get to 2.234 GW * 0.85 = 1.9 GW Solar power: - 1.9/0.2 = 9.5 GW solar power = $9.5B Wind power: - 1.9/0.4 = 4.75 GW wind power = $9B Compared to Vogtle's $37B we have $28B left to spend on batteries. - $28B/$0.063B = 444 GWh 444 GWh is the equivalent to running Vogtle for.... 444 GWh/1.9 GW = 233 hours or 9.8 days. This even ignores nuclear powers O&M costs which are quite substantial. By not having to pay the O&M costs and instead saving them each year after about 20 years we have enough to rebuild the renewable plant. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vogtle_Electric_Generating_Plant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vogtle_Electric_Generating_Pla... [2]: https://www.ess-news.com/2025/01/15/chinas-cgn-new-energy-announces-winning-bidders-in-10-gwh-bess-tender/ https://www.ess-news.com/2025/01/15/chinas-cgn-new-energy-an... [3]: https://www.lazard.com/media/gjyffoqd/lazards-lcoeplus-june-2024.pdf https://www.lazard.com/media/gjyffoqd/lazards-lcoeplus-june-...
      - chickenbig 1y ago
        Thank you for providing numbers that guide your thinking. > - $63/kWh [2] installed and serviced for 20 years = $0.063B per GWh The Lazard source does provide costs for storage on page 44, ranging from about 3x to 6x the cost of that Chinese tender process. Using these numbers gives a rather different picture with storage of between 3.25 days and 1.6 days, insufficient to make solar really work. Alternatively the fair comparison would be within China. Another data-point would be the UAE's attempt to firm solar; $6B for 1GW effective baseload output with 18GWh of storage [1]. So the cost of Vogtle could buy 6 of these, providing perhaps 3 or 4 days worth of storage. [1] https://www.renewableinstitute.org/uae-unveils-6-billion-groundbreaking-24-7-renewable-energy-facility/ https://www.renewableinstitute.org/uae-unveils-6-billion-gro...

matthewdgreen 1y ago

The Pixie dust is called China. BNEF is tracking 7.9 TWh of annual battery manufacturing capacity for the end of 2025 [1]. Chinese manufacturers' all-in costs for BESS are now down to $66/kWh and still dropping [2]. We (or at least China) have crossed the "knee" of the exponential for battery production, and loads of people don't seem to realize this. [1] https://about.bnef.com/blog/china-already-makes-as-many-batteries-as-the-entire-world-wants/ https://about.bnef.com/blog/china-already-makes-as-many-batt... [2] https://cleantechnica.com/2024/12/24/what-are-the-implications-of-66-kwh-battery-packs-in-china/ https://cleantechnica.com/2024/12/24/what-are-the-implicatio...

barbazoo 1y ago

The term is technology agnostic, just fyi. There are many ways to store energy.