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I think you are mixing some different concepts here. It's not that this is a layer on top of Xcode/xcodebuild, it's just that Apple today happens to package eve

I think you are mixing some different concepts here. It's not that this is a layer on top of Xcode/xcodebuild, it's just that Apple today happens to package everything iOS/Swift-related together with Xcode releases. So even if you couldn't care less about the Xcode IDE itself or the xcodebuild build system, you still need to have it because this is the only way for you to download / install those toolchains. Apple could provide these separately, but they just don't.

ImPostingOnHN 1y ago
It sounds like this "cross-platform xcode replacement" isn't cross-platform, and ios app developers still need macos?
- dadoum 1y ago
  But that's wrong. You don't need macOS. That's why they say "cross-platform Xcode replacement". You just need the SDK, which can be used on every platform.
  - ImPostingOnHN 1y ago
    Thank you. I did not make it clear enough that I was asking for clarification there.
  - mathstuf 1y ago
    IIRC, you need to run on Apple hardware for a valid SDK license. VM or Asahi or Hackintosh would suffice, but not a VM on a random Linux box. Or did the terms change lately?
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
notpushkin 1y ago
Would it be possible to get just the SDK from the Xcode package? Like Asahi installer streams only the relevant parts of macOS images from Apple’s servers.
- isodev 1y ago
  There are some components that may be downloadable separately but they really are part of Xcode. One ring to rule them all.
- kabiroberai 1y ago
  I looked into streaming but afaict the XIP format doesn’t support random access the same way that ZIP does. specifically because 1) it doesn’t seem to have a Central Directory like ZIP and 2) it has an optimization where files can be hardlinks to other files (by ID) in the XIP, so if you want to extract a file but all you get is a hardlink ID, you can’t expand the contents until you encounter and expand the hardlink pointee. it’s possible I’ve missed something, open to ideas for sure.
  - notpushkin 1y ago
    I do have an idea that will add a lot of complexity for sure: you can extract Xcode, mapping out whick portions of the archive correspond to the SDKs we need, then use this mapping to only download these relevant parts, reconstruct the archive and expand it. Not sure if it’s worth it!
kabiroberai 1y ago
xtool creator here, this is correct. it wouldn’t have been possible to support Linux if xtool was just a layer on top of Xcode, as Xcode doesn’t run on Linux. we only need Xcode to be installed on macOS since it bundles the iOS SDK (ie all the header files.) similarly, we ask the user to supply a copy of Xcode.xip during the setup process on Linux in order to extract the SDK. it definitely depends on your definition of “replacement” in the end, but I (and most people I’ve spoken with in the iOS community) would consider “Xcode” to be the Xcode build system, user interface, and proprietary tooling. xtool doesn’t rely on any of this, not even for signing and installation. you can (read: must on Linux, may on macOS) use it with the open-source Swift and Clang toolchain + LLVM’s LLD linker and MachO tooling. Codesigning uses zsign, an MIT-licensed x-platform codesign alternative, and installation relies on the open source libimobiledevice project, which is installed by default on many Linux distributions (eg Ubuntu).
- rushiiMachine 1y ago
  I'm not too familiar with the xcode dev environment; could Theos be used instead of the huge xcode bundle? As far as I know, it provides the compilers and frameworks directly.
  - kabiroberai 1y ago
    I’m also one of the maintainers of Theos :) When you use Theos outside macOS, you have to install a toolchain and SDK. The toolchain is built from LLVM + cctools, and is in fact very similar to the one we use in xtool (I maintain both.) The SDK is hosted on GitHub and I could’ve decided to use this instead of getting the user to supply a copy of Xcode, but the copyright status is iffy; there’s an argument to be made in light of Google v. Oracle but I didn’t want to take any chances.
    - rushiiMachine 1y ago
      That makes sense, thanks! I'm excited for the possibility of this being integrated with multiplatform frameworks like KMP. I wouldn't need to boot up my hackintosh anymore :)

ImPostingOnHN 1y ago

It sounds like this "cross-platform xcode replacement" isn't cross-platform, and ios app developers still need macos?

dadoum 1y ago
But that's wrong. You don't need macOS. That's why they say "cross-platform Xcode replacement". You just need the SDK, which can be used on every platform.
- ImPostingOnHN 1y ago
  Thank you. I did not make it clear enough that I was asking for clarification there.
- mathstuf 1y ago
  IIRC, you need to run on Apple hardware for a valid SDK license. VM or Asahi or Hackintosh would suffice, but not a VM on a random Linux box. Or did the terms change lately?
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]

notpushkin 1y ago

Would it be possible to get just the SDK from the Xcode package? Like Asahi installer streams only the relevant parts of macOS images from Apple’s servers.

isodev 1y ago
There are some components that may be downloadable separately but they really are part of Xcode. One ring to rule them all.
kabiroberai 1y ago
I looked into streaming but afaict the XIP format doesn’t support random access the same way that ZIP does. specifically because 1) it doesn’t seem to have a Central Directory like ZIP and 2) it has an optimization where files can be hardlinks to other files (by ID) in the XIP, so if you want to extract a file but all you get is a hardlink ID, you can’t expand the contents until you encounter and expand the hardlink pointee. it’s possible I’ve missed something, open to ideas for sure.
- notpushkin 1y ago
  I do have an idea that will add a lot of complexity for sure: you can extract Xcode, mapping out whick portions of the archive correspond to the SDKs we need, then use this mapping to only download these relevant parts, reconstruct the archive and expand it. Not sure if it’s worth it!

kabiroberai 1y ago

xtool creator here, this is correct. it wouldn’t have been possible to support Linux if xtool was just a layer on top of Xcode, as Xcode doesn’t run on Linux. we only need Xcode to be installed on macOS since it bundles the iOS SDK (ie all the header files.) similarly, we ask the user to supply a copy of Xcode.xip during the setup process on Linux in order to extract the SDK. it definitely depends on your definition of “replacement” in the end, but I (and most people I’ve spoken with in the iOS community) would consider “Xcode” to be the Xcode build system, user interface, and proprietary tooling. xtool doesn’t rely on any of this, not even for signing and installation. you can (read: must on Linux, may on macOS) use it with the open-source Swift and Clang toolchain + LLVM’s LLD linker and MachO tooling. Codesigning uses zsign, an MIT-licensed x-platform codesign alternative, and installation relies on the open source libimobiledevice project, which is installed by default on many Linux distributions (eg Ubuntu).

rushiiMachine 1y ago
I'm not too familiar with the xcode dev environment; could Theos be used instead of the huge xcode bundle? As far as I know, it provides the compilers and frameworks directly.
- kabiroberai 1y ago
  I’m also one of the maintainers of Theos :) When you use Theos outside macOS, you have to install a toolchain and SDK. The toolchain is built from LLVM + cctools, and is in fact very similar to the one we use in xtool (I maintain both.) The SDK is hosted on GitHub and I could’ve decided to use this instead of getting the user to supply a copy of Xcode, but the copyright status is iffy; there’s an argument to be made in light of Google v. Oracle but I didn’t want to take any chances.
  - rushiiMachine 1y ago
    That makes sense, thanks! I'm excited for the possibility of this being integrated with multiplatform frameworks like KMP. I wouldn't need to boot up my hackintosh anymore :)