5 ms·

No fan of the RC church here but I didn't hear any mocking. Just pointing out a counterfactual experience.

HaZeust 1y ago
No one would have this loaded tone when counteracting someone's trauma in ANY subject - besides that of religion. It is a subject with a uniquely deep entrenchment of someone's fundamental life experiences and beliefs, and is the only subject where someone would have the gall to do such a thing; out of defense of, what they believe, is their very essence as a person. There is absolutely no shot that someone would respond to someone sexually abused by their parents with, "On the other hand, I have a loving spouse that makes that same action a very loving and peaceful experience!" It's brazenly distasteful.
- khazhoux 1y ago
  There was no mention of sexual abuse.
  - HaZeust 1y ago
    We call those "analogies", my friend. When someone shares that their time in the Church was marked by coercion and abuse, responding with “well, my experience was uplifting” can feel dismissive of their trauma. It’s similar to hearing a survivor of sexual assault and replying, “my sexual experiences have all been wonderful.” Both experiences can coexist as true, but leading with your positive story in that moment risks minimizing the other person’s pain. It's distasteful, and is not conducive to a productive dialogue.
    - moralestapia 1y ago
      [flagged]
      - soulofmischief 1y ago
        > Productive dialogue can only arise when all points of view are fairly considered You have good intent, but I disagree and believe that "fair for all" does not mean "every viewpoint deserves the same consideration". Specifically, I have spent my entire life encountering Christians who try to tell me I've just had a bad experience and that things are great on their side of the pond, if I'd take a look. But I've read the Bible front to back, I was at the top of every class in my religious studies, I engaged critically with theology during my exposure to it. And my holistic experience revealed the deep hypocrisies, conspiracies and power structures inescapably tied to the Church's past and present. The Catholic Church, and all Judeo-Christian denominations in general, are simply a vehicle for power and control. It treats its followers well, but those who don't fall in line are often subject to very dark corners upheld by violence. The truth is that while you think your perspective is more considerate than mine, it's actually more ignorant. I have seen the things you've seen in the faith, but you haven't seen what I have seen. You have an incomplete picture about the realities of the Church. And yes, it does get tiring and eventually a part of the overall trauma to have well-meaning people completely disregard the truths I share with them and tell me I don't know the Church for what it really is, retreating to their own limited experiences without considering the implications of mine. And while it wasn't your intent, as a group behavior it becomes patronizing. I'm glad you had a good Catholic mother. I had abusive, often homeless drug addicts for parents and was left in the care of a very evil man who used to do horrible things to me in the name of your god, and who was directly empowered and blessed by the Catholic Church to carry out his sick abuse. P.S. > who may be willing to improve their dialectic skills this is also patronizing and snarky especially after beginning your post with "Lv. 0 attack dismissed." That is not what I would call dialectically skillful or considerate. We should always strive to engage with others on Hacker News in good faith.
        moralestapia 1y ago
        >The Catholic Church, and all Judeo-Christian denominations in general, are simply a vehicle for power and control. Source: you. For many, it is a place where they find community and make friends and build their lives around. >it's actually more ignorant This kind of crosses into a personal attack, but I'll let it slide. Just don't do that a lot or you'll get scolded by @dang or @tomhow, and with reason. >a very evil man who used to do horrible things to me in the name of your god With empathy, God didn't do that to you, you don't even believe in him so it wouldn't make sense for you to blame him. Reminds of something from a great writer, "He who has not God in himself cannot feel His absence", perhaps you're in for a treat later in life :). There's another famous quote "To Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s"; if a crime has been committed against you, there are social structures in place to call in for help, and judge and punish the people involved. >"Lv. 0 attack dismissed." That is not what I would call dialectically skillful or considerate. Oh yeah, because I should have taken offense at that and throw a tantrum, instead of writing a thoughtful comment. Sure.
pc86 1y ago
Honestly not even sure it's meant to be a counterfactual experience, just more pointing out that the original comment isn't really germane. "The aesthetics of $THING are really very impressive whether you believe the underlying mythology or not." "Yeah well I had a bad experience with $THING so I don't get any joy out of it all because it's dark and sinister!" ...ok? What's the response to something like that supposed to be? Is this Reddit where we should fall over each other to apologize to someone we've never met about a thing that theoretically happened decades ago and also presumably happened to hundreds or thousands of other people? It just doesn't make any sense.
- soulofmischief 1y ago
  I'm not asking for your apology, or even your response. You could have kept reading on to other comments, ignoring those which were not meant for someone like you. I am allowed to add to a discussion, I am sorry that it did not meet your standards.

No one would have this loaded tone when counteracting someone's trauma in ANY subject - besides that of religion. It is a subject with a uniquely deep entrenchment of someone's fundamental life experiences and beliefs, and is the only subject where someone would have the gall to do such a thing; out of defense of, what they believe, is their very essence as a person. There is absolutely no shot that someone would respond to someone sexually abused by their parents with, "On the other hand, I have a loving spouse that makes that same action a very loving and peaceful experience!" It's brazenly distasteful.

khazhoux 1y ago
There was no mention of sexual abuse.
- HaZeust 1y ago
  We call those "analogies", my friend. When someone shares that their time in the Church was marked by coercion and abuse, responding with “well, my experience was uplifting” can feel dismissive of their trauma. It’s similar to hearing a survivor of sexual assault and replying, “my sexual experiences have all been wonderful.” Both experiences can coexist as true, but leading with your positive story in that moment risks minimizing the other person’s pain. It's distasteful, and is not conducive to a productive dialogue.
  - moralestapia 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - soulofmischief 1y ago
      > Productive dialogue can only arise when all points of view are fairly considered You have good intent, but I disagree and believe that "fair for all" does not mean "every viewpoint deserves the same consideration". Specifically, I have spent my entire life encountering Christians who try to tell me I've just had a bad experience and that things are great on their side of the pond, if I'd take a look. But I've read the Bible front to back, I was at the top of every class in my religious studies, I engaged critically with theology during my exposure to it. And my holistic experience revealed the deep hypocrisies, conspiracies and power structures inescapably tied to the Church's past and present. The Catholic Church, and all Judeo-Christian denominations in general, are simply a vehicle for power and control. It treats its followers well, but those who don't fall in line are often subject to very dark corners upheld by violence. The truth is that while you think your perspective is more considerate than mine, it's actually more ignorant. I have seen the things you've seen in the faith, but you haven't seen what I have seen. You have an incomplete picture about the realities of the Church. And yes, it does get tiring and eventually a part of the overall trauma to have well-meaning people completely disregard the truths I share with them and tell me I don't know the Church for what it really is, retreating to their own limited experiences without considering the implications of mine. And while it wasn't your intent, as a group behavior it becomes patronizing. I'm glad you had a good Catholic mother. I had abusive, often homeless drug addicts for parents and was left in the care of a very evil man who used to do horrible things to me in the name of your god, and who was directly empowered and blessed by the Catholic Church to carry out his sick abuse. P.S. > who may be willing to improve their dialectic skills this is also patronizing and snarky especially after beginning your post with "Lv. 0 attack dismissed." That is not what I would call dialectically skillful or considerate. We should always strive to engage with others on Hacker News in good faith.
      - moralestapia 1y ago
        >The Catholic Church, and all Judeo-Christian denominations in general, are simply a vehicle for power and control. Source: you. For many, it is a place where they find community and make friends and build their lives around. >it's actually more ignorant This kind of crosses into a personal attack, but I'll let it slide. Just don't do that a lot or you'll get scolded by @dang or @tomhow, and with reason. >a very evil man who used to do horrible things to me in the name of your god With empathy, God didn't do that to you, you don't even believe in him so it wouldn't make sense for you to blame him. Reminds of something from a great writer, "He who has not God in himself cannot feel His absence", perhaps you're in for a treat later in life :). There's another famous quote "To Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s"; if a crime has been committed against you, there are social structures in place to call in for help, and judge and punish the people involved. >"Lv. 0 attack dismissed." That is not what I would call dialectically skillful or considerate. Oh yeah, because I should have taken offense at that and throw a tantrum, instead of writing a thoughtful comment. Sure.

pc86 1y ago

Honestly not even sure it's meant to be a counterfactual experience, just more pointing out that the original comment isn't really germane. "The aesthetics of $THING are really very impressive whether you believe the underlying mythology or not." "Yeah well I had a bad experience with $THING so I don't get any joy out of it all because it's dark and sinister!" ...ok? What's the response to something like that supposed to be? Is this Reddit where we should fall over each other to apologize to someone we've never met about a thing that theoretically happened decades ago and also presumably happened to hundreds or thousands of other people? It just doesn't make any sense.

soulofmischief 1y ago
I'm not asking for your apology, or even your response. You could have kept reading on to other comments, ignoring those which were not meant for someone like you. I am allowed to add to a discussion, I am sorry that it did not meet your standards.