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They knowingly attacked and destroyed USS Liberty in 1967 and didn't face any consequences. Sometimes I wonder what's so special about Israel that they keep ge

by rafale 1y ago

They knowingly attacked and destroyed USS Liberty in 1967 and didn't face any consequences. Sometimes I wonder what's so special about Israel that they keep getting away with everything.

logicchains 1y ago
What's so special? A good chunk of the US population believes the Israelis were literally chosen by God over 2000 years ago to occupy that piece of land, and they're obligated to do whatever they can to help them.
- late2part 1y ago
  The same chunk of population "should" (??) think that the Israeli ancestors killed Jesus, and that the Jews will go to hell if they don't accept Jesus as their savior - so - people are weird.
  - InsideOutSanta 1y ago
    Surprisingly, it's internally consistent. Evangelical Christians don't support Israel because they like the people who live there. Instead, they support Israel because, based on their interpretation of Revelation 20, they believe that Israel must be rebuilt or restored as part of God's plan for the end times. This story does not end well for Israel or the people who live there.
  - graemep 1y ago
    I am not no expert on the American evangelical version of Christianity so happy to hear better explanations, but not all evangelicals believe the same things so I do not think there is a reason to say they "should" believe those things. The argument that God's covenant with the Jews is still in effect implies the opposite, if anything. It looks to me that it is correlated with whatever this survey defines as "traditionalist": https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2005/04/15/american-evangelicals-and-israel/ https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2005/04/15/american-eva... Traditionalist applies across denominations with different traditions and theology so no idea whether it has a consistent meaning.
  - weatherlite 1y ago
    Well in that case they "should" also believe that Jesus was Jewish just like the Israelis of today, no? If Israelis are blamed for killing him they should also be praised for creating him.
    - satanfirst 1y ago
      [flagged]
  - dragonwriter 1y ago
    They do; they have other theological reasons for supporting the State of Israel, despite often not being very well inclined toward the Jewish people or Judaism as a religion. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism
- swat535 1y ago
  > A good chunk of the US population believes the Israelis were literally chosen by God There is more to it, not only that but they believe that the Jewish state of Israel is needed for Jesus to return to earth. This belief comes from Thessalonians 2:1-4 "1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. 4 He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God." So the "temple" is required for the anti-Christ to arise, and for Jesus to return. Now as to if that actually means the physical Third Temple of Solomon... this is up for theological debate. Some Church Fathers held that the anti-Christ would indeed arise from a physical Third Temple. While other Church Fathers held that the 3rd Temple in Christianity was technically the Church, and so the anti-Christ would arise from her. Either way, if you side with the first view there is no qualification for a state to be present in order to rebuild the physical Third Temple. Protestant Evangelicals in America by and large take the first stance I mentioned, and are pretty stalwart in their belief the State of Israel is the vehicle through which this will be achieved.
  - ImJamal 1y ago
    They invented this view in the 1800s. Christians prior to this universally considered it a heresy. For those who want additional information, it is called dispensationalism.
  - mistrial9 1y ago
    references to a Temple involve a holy Temple that is not possible on this Earth, also coinciding with physical structures that make it possible to emerge? Evangelical beliefs and others start to be more of a political topic, subject to survey? A basis of the practice is that it is done in the open and lawfully, so Church leaders might be fairly plain about what they actually believe, when asked?
throawayonthe 1y ago
[dead]
markus_zhang 1y ago
The neo crusader kingdom?
- graemep 1y ago
  There is no similarity at all between Israel and the crusader kingdoms: different historical circumstances, different aims.
  - markus_zhang 1y ago
    Some guys àrrived in the middle of that land and beat the hell of others and built a kingdom. Sort of the same.
    - graemep 1y ago
      That is a mischaracterise of the crusades, at least with regard to the crusaders. The crusades were a reaction to the Arab and Turkish Empires, which by then (between them) invaded at some point (and mostly conquered) Spain, France, southern Italy, most of the Mediterranean, North Africa, Italy, Anatolia, and the Levant, and more. I had not noticed the Palestinians aggressive expansionist empire.
    - weatherlite 1y ago
      Yeah that's the story of the West
    - BobaFloutist 1y ago
      If I had a nickel for every time that happened in Israel...
tuyguntn 1y ago
I also wonder about this, my personal conclusion is israelis work very hard to create a dirt on politicians over the years, and politicians just afraid of losing everything in one day vs joining the club of other blackmailed, powerful politicians. cases: Epstein, Monica Lewinsky, AIPAC, and probably many more
- mola 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - pbiggar 1y ago
    How many are currently protesting the genocide? Because it seems like it's barely in the hundreds
    - animuchan 1y ago
      You'd be surprised. But you already have a strong uninformed opinion.
      - pbiggar 1y ago
        Inform me
        Digit-Al 1y ago
        Don't think it's other people's responsibility to spend their precious free time informing you of stuff you can freely look up online yourself.
        pbiggar 1y ago
        If you're going to contradict someone making a claim ("Because it seems like it's barely in the hundreds"), then it is their responsibility to back it up. I work on this area and spend a reasonable amount of time staying up to date. I made my claim - I have seen extremely limited news reports about Israeli protests that center the genocide. Indeed, these reports are extremely new and feature silent protests with several hundred protestors holding up pictures of Israeli kids. Now I could have led with that, but it's not my responsibility to spend my precious time informing people about stuff they could look up themselves online.
jona-f 1y ago
US's legitimization of it's leading role in the world is based on the story how they saved the world from the nazis. This story escalated ideologically, so now any critique of Israel is indirectly questioning USA as the world leader.
- graemep 1y ago
  I do not think so. Not outside the US anyway. The legitimisation lies in the alternatives having been (historically) the Soviet Union, and (now) China.
  - krageon 1y ago
    In any practical sense the Soviet Union did in fact do the lion's share of beating the Nazis. They opened an extra front and sent in a staggering amount of troops. I don't see why it is still so demonized, except when you view it directly through the lens of US propaganda. Their death toll, such as it is, is not even a tenth of the incredible casualty rate of the British. It does not need to be said that they're nowhere near as demonised, except in India. The scope and depth of a civilisation's deaths is not actually all that relevant to how much people hate it.
    - nrml_amnt 1y ago
      Molotov-Ribbentrop is not US propaganda.
gruez 1y ago
>They knowingly attacked and destroyed USS Liberty in 1967 Both sides agree it was an accident. >Israel apologized for the attack, saying that USS Liberty had been attacked in error after being mistaken for an Egyptian ship.[5] Both the Israeli and United States governments conducted inquiries and issued reports that concluded the attack was a mistake due to Israeli confusion about the ship's identity.[6]
- Gud 1y ago
  And if you scratch the surface, you will quickly realise that their apology is bullshit. Israel wanted the US involved and conducted a false flag operation: “Some intelligence and military officials dispute Israel's explanation.[79] Dean Rusk, U.S. Secretary of State at the time of the incident, wrote: I was never satisfied with the Israeli explanation. Their sustained attack to disable and sink Liberty precluded an assault by accident or some trigger-happy local commander. Through diplomatic channels we refused to accept their explanations. I didn't believe them then, and I don't believe them to this day. The attack was outrageous.[80]” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident
  - gruez 1y ago
    >I was never satisfied with the Israeli explanation. Their sustained attack to disable and sink Liberty precluded an assault by accident or some trigger-happy local commander. If the attack was due to mistaken identity, wouldn't you expect the Israelis to go all out? I also skimmed the section and there's not much in the way of arguments besides that and "Israel pressured US to admit it was an accident".
    - clown_strike 1y ago
      There was no mistaken identity. They knew it was an American ship and attacked it on purpose. It was witnessed and documented that they made the decision to deliberately attack an American warship, then tried to excuse themselves from responsibility. They were targeting lifeboats and engaging in other dishonorable behavior we've since seen repeated in Gaza as well. "Going all out" is not warfare, it is sadism in violation of the Geneva Convention. https://web.archive.org/web/20211111095447/https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/but-sir-its-an-american-ship-never-mind-hit-her-1.5492908 https://web.archive.org/web/20211111095447/https://www.haare...
rozap 1y ago
Or exfiltrating enriched nuclear material from NUMEC in the US to get their weapons program underway (Apollo affair) in 1976, or violating the nuclear test treaty off the coast of South Africa (Vela incident) in 1979, or blackmailing Clinton in 1998 (Jonathan Pollard incident). Or any number of other things. And these are just the things we know about. But we know why they are special and get away with things that any other country would be in serious shit for. AIPAC does not fuck around. They play to win. And the evangelicals support it because of their belief about the second coming of christ.
- jazzyjackson 1y ago
  Fine, not wrong, but you missed the rather heavy factor of the western powers feeling they owe a huge debt to the Jewish people for turning their boats back during the Holocaust. It's a "no one helps you til you help yourself" scenario, now that a state exists with a mission to give Jews safe refuge and self governance, they have (some of) the world's sympathy. its not merely because of a few lobbyists and evangelicals' wacky eschatology
  - ratg13 1y ago
    The heavy factor is all of the spying. At one point Israel even handled all of the wiretaps for the US.. so if a US government agency needed a wiretap, it would have to go through Israel. Then there's the active spying.. Stuff like this: https://www.theguardian.com/education/2002/mar/06/internationaleducationnews.highereducation https://www.theguardian.com/education/2002/mar/06/internatio... And when they get caught, nothing ever happens
    - mptest 1y ago
      Can highly recommend Pegasus: a spy in your pocket about this very topic and much more journalists have to go through. terrifying stuff. e.g. jamal kashoggi (and his partner) had it on his phone when he got murdered by SA.
  - megous 1y ago
    No sympathy to anyone who justifies destruction of entire cities (like this https://x.com/SuppressedNws/status/1920242384111055286 https://x.com/SuppressedNws/status/1920242384111055286) as self-defense. Even in my small disgusting genocide supporting country in the center of europe, things are slowly starting to change at this point.
clown_strike 1y ago
They begrudgingly paid restitution for the Liberty decades later. > Sometimes I wonder what's so special about Israel that they keep getting away with everything. A doctrine of full spectrum dominance, lack of ethical constraints and aggressive propagandizing would make anyone unstoppable.

by rafale 1y ago

They knowingly attacked and destroyed USS Liberty in 1967 and didn't face any consequences. Sometimes I wonder what's so special about Israel that they keep getting away with everything.

logicchains 1y ago

What's so special? A good chunk of the US population believes the Israelis were literally chosen by God over 2000 years ago to occupy that piece of land, and they're obligated to do whatever they can to help them.

late2part 1y ago
The same chunk of population "should" (??) think that the Israeli ancestors killed Jesus, and that the Jews will go to hell if they don't accept Jesus as their savior - so - people are weird.
- InsideOutSanta 1y ago
  Surprisingly, it's internally consistent. Evangelical Christians don't support Israel because they like the people who live there. Instead, they support Israel because, based on their interpretation of Revelation 20, they believe that Israel must be rebuilt or restored as part of God's plan for the end times. This story does not end well for Israel or the people who live there.
- graemep 1y ago
  I am not no expert on the American evangelical version of Christianity so happy to hear better explanations, but not all evangelicals believe the same things so I do not think there is a reason to say they "should" believe those things. The argument that God's covenant with the Jews is still in effect implies the opposite, if anything. It looks to me that it is correlated with whatever this survey defines as "traditionalist": https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2005/04/15/american-evangelicals-and-israel/ https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2005/04/15/american-eva... Traditionalist applies across denominations with different traditions and theology so no idea whether it has a consistent meaning.
- weatherlite 1y ago
  Well in that case they "should" also believe that Jesus was Jewish just like the Israelis of today, no? If Israelis are blamed for killing him they should also be praised for creating him.
  - satanfirst 1y ago
    [flagged]
- dragonwriter 1y ago
  They do; they have other theological reasons for supporting the State of Israel, despite often not being very well inclined toward the Jewish people or Judaism as a religion. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism
swat535 1y ago
> A good chunk of the US population believes the Israelis were literally chosen by God There is more to it, not only that but they believe that the Jewish state of Israel is needed for Jesus to return to earth. This belief comes from Thessalonians 2:1-4 "1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. 4 He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God." So the "temple" is required for the anti-Christ to arise, and for Jesus to return. Now as to if that actually means the physical Third Temple of Solomon... this is up for theological debate. Some Church Fathers held that the anti-Christ would indeed arise from a physical Third Temple. While other Church Fathers held that the 3rd Temple in Christianity was technically the Church, and so the anti-Christ would arise from her. Either way, if you side with the first view there is no qualification for a state to be present in order to rebuild the physical Third Temple. Protestant Evangelicals in America by and large take the first stance I mentioned, and are pretty stalwart in their belief the State of Israel is the vehicle through which this will be achieved.
- ImJamal 1y ago
  They invented this view in the 1800s. Christians prior to this universally considered it a heresy. For those who want additional information, it is called dispensationalism.
- mistrial9 1y ago
  references to a Temple involve a holy Temple that is not possible on this Earth, also coinciding with physical structures that make it possible to emerge? Evangelical beliefs and others start to be more of a political topic, subject to survey? A basis of the practice is that it is done in the open and lawfully, so Church leaders might be fairly plain about what they actually believe, when asked?

throawayonthe 1y ago

[dead]

markus_zhang 1y ago

The neo crusader kingdom?

graemep 1y ago
There is no similarity at all between Israel and the crusader kingdoms: different historical circumstances, different aims.
- markus_zhang 1y ago
  Some guys àrrived in the middle of that land and beat the hell of others and built a kingdom. Sort of the same.
  - graemep 1y ago
    That is a mischaracterise of the crusades, at least with regard to the crusaders. The crusades were a reaction to the Arab and Turkish Empires, which by then (between them) invaded at some point (and mostly conquered) Spain, France, southern Italy, most of the Mediterranean, North Africa, Italy, Anatolia, and the Levant, and more. I had not noticed the Palestinians aggressive expansionist empire.
  - weatherlite 1y ago
    Yeah that's the story of the West
  - BobaFloutist 1y ago
    If I had a nickel for every time that happened in Israel...

tuyguntn 1y ago

I also wonder about this, my personal conclusion is israelis work very hard to create a dirt on politicians over the years, and politicians just afraid of losing everything in one day vs joining the club of other blackmailed, powerful politicians. cases: Epstein, Monica Lewinsky, AIPAC, and probably many more

mola 1y ago
[flagged]
- pbiggar 1y ago
  How many are currently protesting the genocide? Because it seems like it's barely in the hundreds
  - animuchan 1y ago
    You'd be surprised. But you already have a strong uninformed opinion.
    - pbiggar 1y ago
      Inform me
      - Digit-Al 1y ago
        Don't think it's other people's responsibility to spend their precious free time informing you of stuff you can freely look up online yourself.
        pbiggar 1y ago
        If you're going to contradict someone making a claim ("Because it seems like it's barely in the hundreds"), then it is their responsibility to back it up. I work on this area and spend a reasonable amount of time staying up to date. I made my claim - I have seen extremely limited news reports about Israeli protests that center the genocide. Indeed, these reports are extremely new and feature silent protests with several hundred protestors holding up pictures of Israeli kids. Now I could have led with that, but it's not my responsibility to spend my precious time informing people about stuff they could look up themselves online.

jona-f 1y ago

US's legitimization of it's leading role in the world is based on the story how they saved the world from the nazis. This story escalated ideologically, so now any critique of Israel is indirectly questioning USA as the world leader.

graemep 1y ago
I do not think so. Not outside the US anyway. The legitimisation lies in the alternatives having been (historically) the Soviet Union, and (now) China.
- krageon 1y ago
  In any practical sense the Soviet Union did in fact do the lion's share of beating the Nazis. They opened an extra front and sent in a staggering amount of troops. I don't see why it is still so demonized, except when you view it directly through the lens of US propaganda. Their death toll, such as it is, is not even a tenth of the incredible casualty rate of the British. It does not need to be said that they're nowhere near as demonised, except in India. The scope and depth of a civilisation's deaths is not actually all that relevant to how much people hate it.
  - nrml_amnt 1y ago
    Molotov-Ribbentrop is not US propaganda.

gruez 1y ago

>They knowingly attacked and destroyed USS Liberty in 1967 Both sides agree it was an accident. >Israel apologized for the attack, saying that USS Liberty had been attacked in error after being mistaken for an Egyptian ship.[5] Both the Israeli and United States governments conducted inquiries and issued reports that concluded the attack was a mistake due to Israeli confusion about the ship's identity.[6]

Gud 1y ago
And if you scratch the surface, you will quickly realise that their apology is bullshit. Israel wanted the US involved and conducted a false flag operation: “Some intelligence and military officials dispute Israel's explanation.[79] Dean Rusk, U.S. Secretary of State at the time of the incident, wrote: I was never satisfied with the Israeli explanation. Their sustained attack to disable and sink Liberty precluded an assault by accident or some trigger-happy local commander. Through diplomatic channels we refused to accept their explanations. I didn't believe them then, and I don't believe them to this day. The attack was outrageous.[80]” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident
- gruez 1y ago
  >I was never satisfied with the Israeli explanation. Their sustained attack to disable and sink Liberty precluded an assault by accident or some trigger-happy local commander. If the attack was due to mistaken identity, wouldn't you expect the Israelis to go all out? I also skimmed the section and there's not much in the way of arguments besides that and "Israel pressured US to admit it was an accident".
  - clown_strike 1y ago
    There was no mistaken identity. They knew it was an American ship and attacked it on purpose. It was witnessed and documented that they made the decision to deliberately attack an American warship, then tried to excuse themselves from responsibility. They were targeting lifeboats and engaging in other dishonorable behavior we've since seen repeated in Gaza as well. "Going all out" is not warfare, it is sadism in violation of the Geneva Convention. https://web.archive.org/web/20211111095447/https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/but-sir-its-an-american-ship-never-mind-hit-her-1.5492908 https://web.archive.org/web/20211111095447/https://www.haare...

rozap 1y ago

Or exfiltrating enriched nuclear material from NUMEC in the US to get their weapons program underway (Apollo affair) in 1976, or violating the nuclear test treaty off the coast of South Africa (Vela incident) in 1979, or blackmailing Clinton in 1998 (Jonathan Pollard incident). Or any number of other things. And these are just the things we know about. But we know why they are special and get away with things that any other country would be in serious shit for. AIPAC does not fuck around. They play to win. And the evangelicals support it because of their belief about the second coming of christ.

jazzyjackson 1y ago
Fine, not wrong, but you missed the rather heavy factor of the western powers feeling they owe a huge debt to the Jewish people for turning their boats back during the Holocaust. It's a "no one helps you til you help yourself" scenario, now that a state exists with a mission to give Jews safe refuge and self governance, they have (some of) the world's sympathy. its not merely because of a few lobbyists and evangelicals' wacky eschatology
- ratg13 1y ago
  The heavy factor is all of the spying. At one point Israel even handled all of the wiretaps for the US.. so if a US government agency needed a wiretap, it would have to go through Israel. Then there's the active spying.. Stuff like this: https://www.theguardian.com/education/2002/mar/06/internationaleducationnews.highereducation https://www.theguardian.com/education/2002/mar/06/internatio... And when they get caught, nothing ever happens
  - mptest 1y ago
    Can highly recommend Pegasus: a spy in your pocket about this very topic and much more journalists have to go through. terrifying stuff. e.g. jamal kashoggi (and his partner) had it on his phone when he got murdered by SA.
- megous 1y ago
  No sympathy to anyone who justifies destruction of entire cities (like this https://x.com/SuppressedNws/status/1920242384111055286 https://x.com/SuppressedNws/status/1920242384111055286) as self-defense. Even in my small disgusting genocide supporting country in the center of europe, things are slowly starting to change at this point.

clown_strike 1y ago

They begrudgingly paid restitution for the Liberty decades later. > Sometimes I wonder what's so special about Israel that they keep getting away with everything. A doctrine of full spectrum dominance, lack of ethical constraints and aggressive propagandizing would make anyone unstoppable.