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I have been using Proton Mail and Proton VPN for over 3 years now. I firmly believe in the fundamental right of privacy online. Indian government has been takin

I have been using Proton Mail and Proton VPN for over 3 years now. I firmly believe in the fundamental right of privacy online. Indian government has been taking steps like these for quite some time now. They previously asked VPN companies to log and gather every bit of information they could about their users including their name and address (effectively driving all VPN companies out of India) Sometimes, I question the meaning of freedom in India. On paper we are free citizens, but essentially we never seem to get the benefits of living in a free country.

JumpCrisscross 1y ago
> On paper we are free citizens, but essentially we never seem to get the benefits of living in a free country India has been mimicking Chinese and Gulf authoritarianism for a decade now. New Delhi is not truly authoritarian, but more an an elected federal government with autocratic powers, not dissimilar from the U.S. Both are mimicking China, to a certain extent, in ways good (industrial policy, moderating hyperindividualism like NIMBYism) and bad (suspending habeus, jingoism).
- astar1 1y ago
  It's becoming an illiberal democracy like Turkey. Which is still a lot different than the US imo. e.g.: -After a decade of Modi rule, India now ranked 161 out of 180 in the world press freedom index: https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/22/media/india-elections-press-freedom-decline-intl-hnk/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/22/media/india-elections-press-f... -Political opponents have been arrested on trumped up charges before elections: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrest_of_Arvind_Kejriwal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrest_of_Arvind_Kejriwal -Extrajudicial killings on Canadian soil and possible attempt on US soil before they were caught (despite extradition agreements between India and these countries): https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/india-government-agent-assassination-plot-sikh-nationalist-canada-rcna176048 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/india-government-agent-as... I saw an interesting interview from 50's by one of India's founders on the topic of democracy in India: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/WyWUlIbcRH8 https://www.youtube.com/shorts/WyWUlIbcRH8 . It seems India still has a long way to go, and the current government is reversing the trend. I really hope the west thinks long and hard about foreign investment in/free trade with India without preconditions (although these are doubtful from the US under the current administration, maybe the EU can step up). The west had this idea that opening up trade with China would make the country more democratic and free, but it had the opposite impact (the extra resources only made things worse in these areas at home and aborad, especially after Xi's takeover in 2014).
  - swiftcoder 1y ago
    I'm unclear which of those things you don't think applies to the US as well? It may not be as blatant, but the current administration is openly attempting to muzzle the press (i.e. banning the AP from Whitehouse), the last few US elections have been mired in law enforcement interactions (FBI investigation into Hilary's emails, Trump's various trials), and extrajudicial killings on foreign soil have openly been a thing since Obama's drone-strike-happy administration.
    - astar1 1y ago
      it's still no where near the same. Adani, india's richest man, has close connections to Modi and is under indictment by the US for bribery: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indictment_against_Gautam_Adani_et_al https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indictment_against_Gautam_Adan... . He also bought one of india's last major independent traditional media outlets (NDTV) years ago. The comparison I can think of is if MSNBC, CNN, and Fox News were all run like Fox news in terms of alignment with Trump. In a country where 25% the population is illiterate this is especially concerning as a significant portion of the electorate can only access their news from traditional media (TV, radio).
      - astar1 1y ago
        oh i forgot to add, the internet penetration rate is around 50% in India, so 50% of the population can't even access youtube on demand.
  - utkarsh858 1y ago
    The first point is completely invalid, here a lot of press, YouTubers berate Indian government in daily basis they do not suffer any setbacks except when netizens call out false propaganda in numbers for both pro and anti government media. Second point the Indian leader arrested was involved in huge scams in liquor and policy, he used to live in a lavish palace and got called out by enforcement directorate. It's good he got arrested. Canada has not provided even a single proof for Indias involvement in extrajudicial killings but instead harbor people who threaten Indians regularly. Despite extradition treaty Canada has become a safe harbor of terrorists and refused to extradite terrorists even after repeated requests by India. Reversing the trend ? Are you kidding me, previous government imposed emergency rule when their position was threatened and commited human rights abuses.
- freefrog334433 1y ago
  and Australia. Australian government tried making encryption illegal. https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/07/australian-pm-calls-end-end-encryption-ban-says-laws-mathematics-dont-apply-down https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/07/australian-pm-calls-en...
guywithahat 1y ago
People forget until how recently India was a socialist nation, and how easy it would be to slip back
- whynotmaybe 1y ago
  Isn't it still socialist per the Constitution?
  - SanjayMehta 1y ago
    The word “socialist” was added to the Constitution by Indira Gandhi during the 70s. This was during her “Emergency” when Parliament was essentially dysfunctional. There have been campaigns to remove her changes, but nothing has come of it.
  - throwaway2037 1y ago
    I found a copy of the text here: https://legislative.gov.in/constitution-of-india/ https://legislative.gov.in/constitution-of-india/ English version: https://cdnbbsr.s3waas.gov.in/s380537a945c7aaa788ccfcdf1b99b5d8f/uploads/2024/07/20240716890312078.pdf https://cdnbbsr.s3waas.gov.in/s380537a945c7aaa788ccfcdf1b99b... In the preamble (p32), I see this text: > WE, THE PEOPLE OF INDIA, having solemnly resolved to constitute India into a [SOVEREIGN SOCIALIST SECULAR DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC] and to secure to all its citizens: That said, I don't know how constitutional amendments work in India. This text may have been amended at a later date, but the original text remains.
    - SanjayMehta 1y ago
      “Socialist” and “Secular” were added by Indira Gandhi when she had declared an Emergency after being disqualified by a high court. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forty-second_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forty-second_Amendment_of_the_...
- paxys 1y ago
  Socialism is an economic policy. It has nothing to do with "freedom".
GenshoTikamura 1y ago
Question the meaning of freedom in the whole world instead
jeswin 1y ago
> Indian government has been taking steps like these for quite some time now. In this instance though, this is from the High Court of the state of Karnataka and not the Indian Government. Karnataka isn't ruled by the same party at the center (imagine California and the current US Government). Again, the Government of Karnataka had nothing to do with this case either - it's the High Court. Indian courts have done similar things forever. YouTube/FB etc quickly comply with court orders here; because judges would simply issue a blanket ban order on the website.
- naughtyfinch 1y ago
  [dead]
archsurface 1y ago
Add in Aadhaar.
rldjbpin 1y ago
> They previously asked VPN companies to log and gather every bit of information they could about their users including their name and address (effectively driving all VPN companies out of India) in NordVPN (a paid mainstream provider without Mulvad-like conviction to privacy), you can connect to an Indian server without ever providing your personal details when signing in. i wonder how much these rulings are enforced in reality. there is definitely no great firewall situation and outright jailing for breaching this law so far. but on the other hand, it is just a lower temperature setting in the frog-boiling process.
- 0x6c6f6c 1y ago
  Does it work that way if you initially sign up from India? Your first VPN sign up is inherently from your real IP and that's enough to determine geolocation as India. They may require different data for different countries. I'm not saying it does. Just that it's possible. Perhaps an Indian NordVPN user could provide input here

JumpCrisscross 1y ago

> On paper we are free citizens, but essentially we never seem to get the benefits of living in a free country India has been mimicking Chinese and Gulf authoritarianism for a decade now. New Delhi is not truly authoritarian, but more an an elected federal government with autocratic powers, not dissimilar from the U.S. Both are mimicking China, to a certain extent, in ways good (industrial policy, moderating hyperindividualism like NIMBYism) and bad (suspending habeus, jingoism).

astar1 1y ago
It's becoming an illiberal democracy like Turkey. Which is still a lot different than the US imo. e.g.: -After a decade of Modi rule, India now ranked 161 out of 180 in the world press freedom index: https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/22/media/india-elections-press-freedom-decline-intl-hnk/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/22/media/india-elections-press-f... -Political opponents have been arrested on trumped up charges before elections: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrest_of_Arvind_Kejriwal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrest_of_Arvind_Kejriwal -Extrajudicial killings on Canadian soil and possible attempt on US soil before they were caught (despite extradition agreements between India and these countries): https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/india-government-agent-assassination-plot-sikh-nationalist-canada-rcna176048 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/india-government-agent-as... I saw an interesting interview from 50's by one of India's founders on the topic of democracy in India: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/WyWUlIbcRH8 https://www.youtube.com/shorts/WyWUlIbcRH8 . It seems India still has a long way to go, and the current government is reversing the trend. I really hope the west thinks long and hard about foreign investment in/free trade with India without preconditions (although these are doubtful from the US under the current administration, maybe the EU can step up). The west had this idea that opening up trade with China would make the country more democratic and free, but it had the opposite impact (the extra resources only made things worse in these areas at home and aborad, especially after Xi's takeover in 2014).
- swiftcoder 1y ago
  I'm unclear which of those things you don't think applies to the US as well? It may not be as blatant, but the current administration is openly attempting to muzzle the press (i.e. banning the AP from Whitehouse), the last few US elections have been mired in law enforcement interactions (FBI investigation into Hilary's emails, Trump's various trials), and extrajudicial killings on foreign soil have openly been a thing since Obama's drone-strike-happy administration.
  - astar1 1y ago
    it's still no where near the same. Adani, india's richest man, has close connections to Modi and is under indictment by the US for bribery: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indictment_against_Gautam_Adani_et_al https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indictment_against_Gautam_Adan... . He also bought one of india's last major independent traditional media outlets (NDTV) years ago. The comparison I can think of is if MSNBC, CNN, and Fox News were all run like Fox news in terms of alignment with Trump. In a country where 25% the population is illiterate this is especially concerning as a significant portion of the electorate can only access their news from traditional media (TV, radio).
    - astar1 1y ago
      oh i forgot to add, the internet penetration rate is around 50% in India, so 50% of the population can't even access youtube on demand.
- utkarsh858 1y ago
  The first point is completely invalid, here a lot of press, YouTubers berate Indian government in daily basis they do not suffer any setbacks except when netizens call out false propaganda in numbers for both pro and anti government media. Second point the Indian leader arrested was involved in huge scams in liquor and policy, he used to live in a lavish palace and got called out by enforcement directorate. It's good he got arrested. Canada has not provided even a single proof for Indias involvement in extrajudicial killings but instead harbor people who threaten Indians regularly. Despite extradition treaty Canada has become a safe harbor of terrorists and refused to extradite terrorists even after repeated requests by India. Reversing the trend ? Are you kidding me, previous government imposed emergency rule when their position was threatened and commited human rights abuses.
freefrog334433 1y ago
and Australia. Australian government tried making encryption illegal. https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/07/australian-pm-calls-end-end-encryption-ban-says-laws-mathematics-dont-apply-down https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/07/australian-pm-calls-en...

guywithahat 1y ago

People forget until how recently India was a socialist nation, and how easy it would be to slip back

whynotmaybe 1y ago
Isn't it still socialist per the Constitution?
- SanjayMehta 1y ago
  The word “socialist” was added to the Constitution by Indira Gandhi during the 70s. This was during her “Emergency” when Parliament was essentially dysfunctional. There have been campaigns to remove her changes, but nothing has come of it.
- throwaway2037 1y ago
  I found a copy of the text here: https://legislative.gov.in/constitution-of-india/ https://legislative.gov.in/constitution-of-india/ English version: https://cdnbbsr.s3waas.gov.in/s380537a945c7aaa788ccfcdf1b99b5d8f/uploads/2024/07/20240716890312078.pdf https://cdnbbsr.s3waas.gov.in/s380537a945c7aaa788ccfcdf1b99b... In the preamble (p32), I see this text: > WE, THE PEOPLE OF INDIA, having solemnly resolved to constitute India into a [SOVEREIGN SOCIALIST SECULAR DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC] and to secure to all its citizens: That said, I don't know how constitutional amendments work in India. This text may have been amended at a later date, but the original text remains.
  - SanjayMehta 1y ago
    “Socialist” and “Secular” were added by Indira Gandhi when she had declared an Emergency after being disqualified by a high court. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forty-second_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forty-second_Amendment_of_the_...
paxys 1y ago
Socialism is an economic policy. It has nothing to do with "freedom".

GenshoTikamura 1y ago

Question the meaning of freedom in the whole world instead

jeswin 1y ago

> Indian government has been taking steps like these for quite some time now. In this instance though, this is from the High Court of the state of Karnataka and not the Indian Government. Karnataka isn't ruled by the same party at the center (imagine California and the current US Government). Again, the Government of Karnataka had nothing to do with this case either - it's the High Court. Indian courts have done similar things forever. YouTube/FB etc quickly comply with court orders here; because judges would simply issue a blanket ban order on the website.

naughtyfinch 1y ago
[dead]

archsurface 1y ago

Add in Aadhaar.

rldjbpin 1y ago

> They previously asked VPN companies to log and gather every bit of information they could about their users including their name and address (effectively driving all VPN companies out of India) in NordVPN (a paid mainstream provider without Mulvad-like conviction to privacy), you can connect to an Indian server without ever providing your personal details when signing in. i wonder how much these rulings are enforced in reality. there is definitely no great firewall situation and outright jailing for breaching this law so far. but on the other hand, it is just a lower temperature setting in the frog-boiling process.

0x6c6f6c 1y ago
Does it work that way if you initially sign up from India? Your first VPN sign up is inherently from your real IP and that's enough to determine geolocation as India. They may require different data for different countries. I'm not saying it does. Just that it's possible. Perhaps an Indian NordVPN user could provide input here