17 ms·
Issues like these reflects an evolutionary blind spot: selective pressure drops off after reproductive age, allowing defects like prostate dysfunction to persis
by blainm 1y ago
Issues like these reflects an evolutionary blind spot: selective pressure drops off after reproductive age, allowing defects like prostate dysfunction to persist. It's the same reason late-onset neurological diseases remain prevalent.
- mattigames 1y agoWe lucked out compared to other species, octopus develop dementia soon after breeding.
- amelius 1y agoYes, and there are spiders where the female eats the male after breeding. I bet their pr0n movies are a bit more interesting than ours.
- 7thaccount 1y agoIsn't that usually only in captivity where it can't escape?
- card_zero 1y agoHmm. If we engineer late-life reproduction, that might create evolutionary pressure for healthy old age. Hides long list of ethical problems with the concept
- throwuxiytayq 1y agoThe main problem is that evolution is just not a thing at our modern civilizational time scale. And I don’t see any problems with late-life reproduction, assuming we can make it reliable and healthy. If anything, some countries desperately need it.
- literalAardvark 1y agoFrom my reading this is wrong in principle. Evolution is really slow on average, but locally it moves quite quickly and probably explains the large variation between members of a species. Add strong selective pressure to that high local speed and you can change a good part of the genotype within a couple of generations. See: animal husbandry. You can breed a new race of dog within 5-10 generations. Ethics aside we could probably breed people who can sniff out Alzheimer's in less than 250 years. Our current late reproduction style will very likely influence future generations health at older ages.
- giantg2 1y agoIt's probably a wash. Sure people are reproducing later, but it's also more likely that they have recieved some major medical intervention to allow them to make it to that stage. For example, it could be stuff like freezing eggs before starting chemo.
- tomrod 1y agoThat in of itself is an external selection pressure though, having enough fit to gather resources to delay reproduction.
- throwuxiytayq 1y ago> in less than 250 years I don't dispute any of your points in general. But at the same time, it brings a nostalgic smile to my face to envision starting a 250-year project in 2025.
- tomrod 1y agoSomeone needs to remain alive to provide, protect and raise the kids.
- inglor_cz 1y agoEvolution is still a thing at relatively short time periods. Icelanders are a well-studied population when it comes to genetics. Frequency of some traits meaningfully changed among them in last 100 years. Source: this book: https://www.amazon.de/dp/0198821263?ref_=pe_109184651_1103807401_fed_asin_title https://www.amazon.de/dp/0198821263?ref_=pe_109184651_110380...
- genewitch 1y agoAlso the moths that "changed" from white to black during and because of the industrial revolution. That was quick, and to me, the best example of how it all works.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- Workaccount2 1y agoWe just have to get the media to portray geriatric men as sexy, and we'll be well on our way to living to 200!
- the_af 1y agoI know you're joking, but it's women that get the short end of the stick in media. Men are (within reason) considered handsome in media even in old age. Wrinkles and gray hair can be seen as sexy (again, within reason), but only in men. Women are discarded or relegated to sexless granny roles (except maybe for comedic purposes, where sexuality is the butt of a joke). Actresses are replaced by younger women because they are not sexy enough even when their male equivalents aren't (looking at you, Top Gun: Maverick). I'm not saying there aren't exceptions in particular movies that deal with this topic; I'm talking about the general trend.
- Spooky23 1y agoWhen you ask men who they are attracted to, at least on the surface, it’s always young women. I’m pretty sure the OkCupid stats showed that girls age 20 give or take were peak attractiveness. Reality is of course that guys will “work for food” or attention. Women are different. It ranges — alot, and is more about EQ and scarcity. If you have a moderate baseline level of physical attractiveness, moderately fit (Jon two miles let’s say), not an asshole, and not living with mom, a 40-60 year old guy is a hot commodity.
- fc417fc802 1y agoThis all makes perfect sense from a fertility (and thus natural selection) perspective.
- the_af 1y agoAgreed, but once you reach 60 (like Cruise and McGillis) you're well beyond the forces of natural selection and into the unnatural realm that our longer lives have granted us. Both of these actors are outcompeted in real life by younger people (sex/reproduction wise) yet one of them is still able to secure billing in "sexy roles" and the other isn't... and this is just one example. This could be natural selection acting against us, but since modern society is artificial anyway, why not make an effort to combat it?
- halgir 1y agoWe missed the boat for that a few million years ago. If we're engineering anyway, we might as well engineer for healthy old age directly.
- the__alchemist 1y agoDawkins suggested this might be viable (In an abstract; not politically practical) way in The Selfish Gene.
- wkat4242 1y agoWith our modern health systems we are pretty much a huge evolutionary blind spot ourselves. Many illnesses that would be filtered out because the carrier wouldn't survive, are now trivial. And on the journey hand we can screen for known illnesses. I think we are already post evolutionary, or control it ourselves. Not a big issue either IMO, it's totally ok that this is happening.
- derektank 1y agoWe are definitely not post-evolutionary; the selection pressures have simply changed. Before industrialization the big two were starvation and infectious disease. Now? Well, it's anybody's guess decade to decade. Certainly sexual selection is still with us.
- pavel_lishin 1y agoI read a pretty entertaining novel where that was one of the sub-plots. The ethical problems were fun to read about! But would be significantly less fun to live through.
- justinclift 1y agoName of the novel?
- pavel_lishin 1y agoIt was one of Stephen Baxter's Xeelee series, I believe it was Ring.
- justinclift 1y agoCool, yeah those are pretty good. :)
- Qem 1y agoWe engineered it culturally already. Lots of people delaying childbirth until late 30s, early 40s today, often resorting to expensive treatments.
- magicalhippo 1y agoIf we're ignoring ethics, then we don't need late-life reproduction. Just kill all offspring if one of the parents die of some unwanted cause. Allows people to still get kids in the optimal age, yet applying old-age selection pressure.
- nonethewiser 1y agoSo widen the reproductive age (men only)
- hhh 1y agoWhy men only?
- ix101 1y agoI think OP was alluding to the fact that risks of complications with pregnancy increases with age.
- hhh 1y agowouldn’t the intention be just to fix that as well
- nonethewiser 1y agoHow do you "fix" menopause?
- nonethewiser 1y agoNot exactly that. Menopause.
- nonethewiser 1y agoBecause you can't for women.
- yapyap 1y agowhat? so are you implying that prostate dysfunction makes you less wanted as a father if it presents itself in “the reproductive age”?
- rubyfan 1y agoI read the comment as insinuating people stop taking care of themselves as much after children and develop unhealthy habits.
- trollied 1y agoNo. The grandparent comment was essentially saying that we, as a species, were not designed to live as long as we do. It’s only been <10 generations since medicine has been a thing. Cancers, dementia etc just weren’t a thing before because we evolved to live long enough to bring our children up to be self sufficient and reproduce, then our job is done. Like the rest of the animal world do. Modern medicine has messed with this. We weren’t meant to “old”.
- jbd0 1y agoShouldn't kids with grandfathers have an evolutionary advantage?
- natebc 1y agowhen humans were still primarily subjected to natural selection the life expectancy likely wouldn't have allowed for many grandfathers.
- Sharlin 1y agoYou only have to live to your 40s to become a grandparent in natural conditions, and your chances of living to at least your 50s have always been pretty good conditional on living long enough to reproduce at all.
- nkrisc 1y agoYour 40s? A man could pretty easily be a grandfather at 26-28, possibly less. Perhaps less common but 30s would probably be more likely.
- readthenotes1 1y agoIirc, historically, if you made it to 10 years of age, most humans make it to 60
- inglor_cz 1y agoMedieval burial grounds, when examined by anthropologists, do contain some people over 60, but the majority of adults buried there died earlier, typically in the 45-55 bracket. It wasn't just disease, but also wars and famines. And in women, deaths during childbirth, which cluster in the 20-35 bracket. Cardinals of the Church, who led peaceful lives, didn't give birth and never went hungry, lived into their late 60s and early 70s even during the Middle Ages. But an average peasant wouldn't.
- bmicraft 1y agoThey didn't say drops to zero, but the advantage is obviously more limited
- lukas099 1y agoBut the issue also causes male infertility, so that can’t be why it’s so prevalent. This is discussed in the article.
- wazoox 1y agoMale infertility after 60 is probably not very impactful from a selective point of view. For 300 000 years, almost nobody reached 60 anyway.
- MyPasswordSucks 1y agoThe article sort of mentions this in passing, but doesn't subject it to much rigor, and the (completely obvious?) counterargument is that by the time it causes male infertility, the affected have already reproduced.