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I hope whatever post-Trump Democratic Party that forms in the next few years will take the idea of abolishing ICE seriously. The institution has been rotten si

by panic 1y ago

I hope whatever post-Trump Democratic Party that forms in the next few years will take the idea of abolishing ICE seriously. The institution has been rotten since it was founded.

quantified 1y ago
That party is probably toast. Another party will take a generation to establish, during which time appropriate media needs to coalesce so as to organize and transmit its thinking. Democrats, well-meaning as they are, are too consumed with doing right and not with actually being in a position to do right. They even rally around total losers. As Paul Graham noted, it's the charisma, stupid, and since Obama (not a good choice), they've had no one.
- crote 1y ago
  > Democrats, well-meaning as they are, are too consumed with doing right and not with actually being in a position to do right. I'd argue the opposite, actually. The Democratic party is obsessed with staying in power, but unwilling to have any halfway-interesting policies because they fear missing out on lobbyist bribes or losing any chance of getting the independent/undecided/centrist vote. Every time the Republicans move to the right, the Democratic party does a small step to the right as well to "compromise". The Democratic party isn't interested in doing the right thing, and as a result the left-wing voter base turns to complete apathy or wastes their vote on independent candidates. If the US had a functioning democracy, there would've been a new left-wing party ages ago.
  - readthenotes1 1y ago
    One of my friends said "that problem is too valuable to solve" It wasn't about immigration, but it's a pretty generally applicable principal
  - alabastervlog 1y ago
    They're in precisely the same position the Republicans were in before Trump: they're the only viable and not completely-detestable party for about half the voters, but are doing a really bad job of working on what those voters want. Republican Party leadership in 2015-2016 wanted more of business as usual, and to keep power. Trump came in talking just like an actual Republican voter in a midwestern diner, with the credibility of being a party outsider, which cut the legs out from under them because they have sucked at representing their actual voters for decades. This struck such a grievous blow that he quickly took over the entire party. Then he either actually did things Republicans had been selling voters on for years but not delivering (Roe v Wade, gone, thanks to his Supreme Court), or at least kind-of ineptly tried to do things Republican voters have long wanted but Republican politicians never really even tried to do (the stupid wall, tariff China, destroy [well, uh, replace with a barely-different agreement, but whatever, names matter] NAFTA). It took him bumbling his way through a pandemic to lose, and not by that much, he'd almost certainly have gotten a second term if not for sheer chance despite all the blatant corruption and daily incredibly stupid bullshit, that is how effective this strategy was. Democrats won't improve and will struggle to win elections until something similar happens to their party. This will need to include abandoning strident neoliberal economic policy, as it did for the Republicans, because voters never liked that and it only worked because both parties stuck to it regardless. ... all of this is assuming we have free & fair Federal elections again.
  - mountainmonk 1y ago
    "Give me control of a nation's money supply, and I care not who makes its laws" Both parties share the blame. With Trump some claim that it was Kamala's focus on trans that made the difference while others claim that she didn't focus that much on it if at all. My take is that both parties jump at the opportunity to focus on these lesser issues rather big picture items such as taxes, universal healthcare or anything else that would actually make a large impact in people's lives. This is nothing new. I remember when Bernie was drowned out years ago and the focus became gay marriage instead of the much more important issues he was advocating for. The blame for focusing on these issues cannot fall just on the republican party. The democrats were more than happy to focus on these issues instead of something that might pit them against those that fund them. If all that matters is who is paying you behind closed walls, then it doesn't matter which party is in power at all.
    - watwut 1y ago
      It was republicans who focused on trans, relentlessly and for months super actively. And it helped to win them election, outrage and anger sells votes. It was effective to make voters vote for them. Besides, the parties are not symmetrical. This is not both sides issue, this is literally republicans causing all the damage issue while democrats are blamed for not stopping it. The "both parties are to blame" when what is happening is literally republicans doing it massive harm intentionally is what caused this situation.
      - mountainmonk 1y ago
        The republicans come in screw things up and then the democrats come in and fix a thing on two, they never actually repair things and even continue doing the same things. Obama stayed in the same wars they condemned Bush for, kept the same 'war on terror' policies. Trump on the other hand removed or stopped almost everything associated with Obama. Biden kept the sanctions on China that Trump put in while Trump again removed the chips act and everything else that Biden did. See the pattern here? one party destroys the things of the other party keeps the very same things they condemned the other party for. My guess right now is that democrats after Trump are counting on coming in, fixing some very minor things while running on a 'everything is gonna be different' platform much like Obama did after Bush. I'm not saying they are equal, they are different but at the end of the day they both play on the same team so who cares about the small differences?. I honestly believe the democrats are done for, its either that or there won't be a point to them anymore since if they stay the same there won't be any need to pretend anymore as the last cycle of this little game ends with the next Trump.
  - quantified 1y ago
    Hmmm, how does regulating crypto and advocating for things like a good environment, good health care, family care, human rights, and such tap into lobbyist bribes? As politicians, they do succumb to their own share of shenanigans. But they seemed to tend to not enjoy shitting on quite as many people.
    - panic 1y ago
      By stopping at "advocating" rather than doing the dirty political work to actually implement things like good health care. We are told what we want is impossible due to some rule or another only to watch the GOP ignore or work around the same rule in service of their cruel agenda.
      - kcplate 1y ago
        I’d add that the success that they have had around implementing progressive policy gains falls within a “good intentions with poor execution”, but they strangely measure their political success by the intentions they had instead of the disastrous executions.
plasma_beam 1y ago
This is a common sentiment..and was quite prevalent especially in the whole ‘abolish ICE’ movement. But I always fail to see in these arguments the explicit distinction between the two divisions of ICE - ERO (enforcement and removal operations) and HSI (homeland security investigations). It’s like grouping together the beat cops and the detectives - they work in the same precinct, but vastly different jobs. HSI also houses other programs like SEVIS, which admittedly has lots of its own issues, but manages all foreign students in the US and interfaces with universities for reporting purposes. Now HSI is undoubtedly informing some of the immigrant raids, and the leadership of ICE is now clearly oriented to the right, but there are some what I’d call non-partisan things the agency is doing that we don’t want abolished. Not picking on you at all, I just wish more of these arguments dove a little deeper into all that ICE does.
- bananapub 1y ago
  because the structure is horrible. re-create it as the Immigration Office of Clerks and make them wear polo shirts with a little logo and chinos and work in cubes to process paperwork quickly. letting it have a whole department of sociopaths with guns is just a ticking time bomb.

by panic 1y ago

I hope whatever post-Trump Democratic Party that forms in the next few years will take the idea of abolishing ICE seriously. The institution has been rotten since it was founded.

quantified 1y ago

That party is probably toast. Another party will take a generation to establish, during which time appropriate media needs to coalesce so as to organize and transmit its thinking. Democrats, well-meaning as they are, are too consumed with doing right and not with actually being in a position to do right. They even rally around total losers. As Paul Graham noted, it's the charisma, stupid, and since Obama (not a good choice), they've had no one.

crote 1y ago
> Democrats, well-meaning as they are, are too consumed with doing right and not with actually being in a position to do right. I'd argue the opposite, actually. The Democratic party is obsessed with staying in power, but unwilling to have any halfway-interesting policies because they fear missing out on lobbyist bribes or losing any chance of getting the independent/undecided/centrist vote. Every time the Republicans move to the right, the Democratic party does a small step to the right as well to "compromise". The Democratic party isn't interested in doing the right thing, and as a result the left-wing voter base turns to complete apathy or wastes their vote on independent candidates. If the US had a functioning democracy, there would've been a new left-wing party ages ago.
- readthenotes1 1y ago
  One of my friends said "that problem is too valuable to solve" It wasn't about immigration, but it's a pretty generally applicable principal
- alabastervlog 1y ago
  They're in precisely the same position the Republicans were in before Trump: they're the only viable and not completely-detestable party for about half the voters, but are doing a really bad job of working on what those voters want. Republican Party leadership in 2015-2016 wanted more of business as usual, and to keep power. Trump came in talking just like an actual Republican voter in a midwestern diner, with the credibility of being a party outsider, which cut the legs out from under them because they have sucked at representing their actual voters for decades. This struck such a grievous blow that he quickly took over the entire party. Then he either actually did things Republicans had been selling voters on for years but not delivering (Roe v Wade, gone, thanks to his Supreme Court), or at least kind-of ineptly tried to do things Republican voters have long wanted but Republican politicians never really even tried to do (the stupid wall, tariff China, destroy [well, uh, replace with a barely-different agreement, but whatever, names matter] NAFTA). It took him bumbling his way through a pandemic to lose, and not by that much, he'd almost certainly have gotten a second term if not for sheer chance despite all the blatant corruption and daily incredibly stupid bullshit, that is how effective this strategy was. Democrats won't improve and will struggle to win elections until something similar happens to their party. This will need to include abandoning strident neoliberal economic policy, as it did for the Republicans, because voters never liked that and it only worked because both parties stuck to it regardless. ... all of this is assuming we have free & fair Federal elections again.
- mountainmonk 1y ago
  "Give me control of a nation's money supply, and I care not who makes its laws" Both parties share the blame. With Trump some claim that it was Kamala's focus on trans that made the difference while others claim that she didn't focus that much on it if at all. My take is that both parties jump at the opportunity to focus on these lesser issues rather big picture items such as taxes, universal healthcare or anything else that would actually make a large impact in people's lives. This is nothing new. I remember when Bernie was drowned out years ago and the focus became gay marriage instead of the much more important issues he was advocating for. The blame for focusing on these issues cannot fall just on the republican party. The democrats were more than happy to focus on these issues instead of something that might pit them against those that fund them. If all that matters is who is paying you behind closed walls, then it doesn't matter which party is in power at all.
  - watwut 1y ago
    It was republicans who focused on trans, relentlessly and for months super actively. And it helped to win them election, outrage and anger sells votes. It was effective to make voters vote for them. Besides, the parties are not symmetrical. This is not both sides issue, this is literally republicans causing all the damage issue while democrats are blamed for not stopping it. The "both parties are to blame" when what is happening is literally republicans doing it massive harm intentionally is what caused this situation.
    - mountainmonk 1y ago
      The republicans come in screw things up and then the democrats come in and fix a thing on two, they never actually repair things and even continue doing the same things. Obama stayed in the same wars they condemned Bush for, kept the same 'war on terror' policies. Trump on the other hand removed or stopped almost everything associated with Obama. Biden kept the sanctions on China that Trump put in while Trump again removed the chips act and everything else that Biden did. See the pattern here? one party destroys the things of the other party keeps the very same things they condemned the other party for. My guess right now is that democrats after Trump are counting on coming in, fixing some very minor things while running on a 'everything is gonna be different' platform much like Obama did after Bush. I'm not saying they are equal, they are different but at the end of the day they both play on the same team so who cares about the small differences?. I honestly believe the democrats are done for, its either that or there won't be a point to them anymore since if they stay the same there won't be any need to pretend anymore as the last cycle of this little game ends with the next Trump.
- quantified 1y ago
  Hmmm, how does regulating crypto and advocating for things like a good environment, good health care, family care, human rights, and such tap into lobbyist bribes? As politicians, they do succumb to their own share of shenanigans. But they seemed to tend to not enjoy shitting on quite as many people.
  - panic 1y ago
    By stopping at "advocating" rather than doing the dirty political work to actually implement things like good health care. We are told what we want is impossible due to some rule or another only to watch the GOP ignore or work around the same rule in service of their cruel agenda.
    - kcplate 1y ago
      I’d add that the success that they have had around implementing progressive policy gains falls within a “good intentions with poor execution”, but they strangely measure their political success by the intentions they had instead of the disastrous executions.

plasma_beam 1y ago

This is a common sentiment..and was quite prevalent especially in the whole ‘abolish ICE’ movement. But I always fail to see in these arguments the explicit distinction between the two divisions of ICE - ERO (enforcement and removal operations) and HSI (homeland security investigations). It’s like grouping together the beat cops and the detectives - they work in the same precinct, but vastly different jobs. HSI also houses other programs like SEVIS, which admittedly has lots of its own issues, but manages all foreign students in the US and interfaces with universities for reporting purposes. Now HSI is undoubtedly informing some of the immigrant raids, and the leadership of ICE is now clearly oriented to the right, but there are some what I’d call non-partisan things the agency is doing that we don’t want abolished. Not picking on you at all, I just wish more of these arguments dove a little deeper into all that ICE does.

bananapub 1y ago
because the structure is horrible. re-create it as the Immigration Office of Clerks and make them wear polo shirts with a little logo and chinos and work in cubes to process paperwork quickly. letting it have a whole department of sociopaths with guns is just a ticking time bomb.