6 ms·

One thing that I appreciate about dang, and PG before him, is their intellectual honesty and strong sense of ethics. On the face of it, HN should be terrible.

One thing that I appreciate about dang, and PG before him, is their intellectual honesty and strong sense of ethics. On the face of it, HN should be terrible. It's a forum owned an investment firm as promotion for their business. But because HN was started by an individual with real values, and has been operated day-to-day by individuals that followed in his tradition, its been capable of unreasonable greatness and real authenticity. At this point, HN is sort of the tail that wags the YC dog. There are a great many seed funds but only one HN. It would be a good thing for the world if HN was spun out as a non-profit and maintained long-term. But in any case, we can all hope that it will at least continue to be stewarded by good people for a while longer. Good luck and thanks!

roflyear 1y ago
I really don't think that HN lets dissenting opinions thrive (well, not anything that is truly controversial but not clearly hateful). That may feel cozy but it's not a reflection of anything pure or good, imo.
- RicoElectrico 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - roflyear 1y ago
    Yeah! Absolutely. They want the wheel to keep turning - and I do too, if I'm being honest! I get paid from the system like lots of people here. I just would like for more people to acknowledge that. IDK. Seems more honest and more fitting to what everyone says the HN culture "really is."
- pstuart 1y ago
  I'm not sure about that, but a lot of it depends on what you consider to be "dissenting opinions".
  - roflyear 1y ago
    I agree it depends on the definition. Quite honestly my vibe, and really that is all it is for any of us discussing this, is pretty much anything more aggressive than my comment above (or even including my comment above, once more people read it). I definitely DO NOT mean clear hate speech, etc.. that's not my point at all.
    - alwa 1y ago
      I, for one, come here in substantial part for the norms against aggression and toward calm substantive discussion. Shouting matches and rhetorical posturing are exhausting. There are places for that—most places online, anymore; this is not one of them.
    - mac-mc 1y ago
      So, do you mean you don't like tone policing? You can say pretty much anything as long as the tone stays intellectual and doesn't go into brain damage politics, harassment, or conspiracy zone where it's being banned because it's off-topic and, frankly, exhausting and unproductive.
      - roflyear 1y ago
        No, and if you read the tone of my posts and even the tone of dang (and others) here I would argue that my tone is not out of line and arguably more polite. But I'm the one that is rate limited in this thread and prevented from interacting with people politely.
  - kccqzy 1y ago
    For example, having the opinion that manifest V3 is good for users is an opinion that will not thrive on HN. Personally I hope Tom will bring new moderation policies that will truly let unpopular opinions thrive, but I don't have high hopes here since this is just an announcement of a new moderator, not an announcement of new moderation policies.
    - 1y ago
- jszymborski 1y ago
  Little ironic considering you're the second comment everyone sees on this thread at the moment.
  - roflyear 1y ago
    Well, let's see how that plays out first, I did just post it a few minutes ago (refresh has me at 0 karma fyi)
    - Lerc 1y ago
      It is a shame that people will downvote a thing that is expressing an honest opinion. I can't really relate to the mindset of people who use downvoting as a 'I disagree' button. I don't think this extends to the way that HN is moderated or run. It is worth looking at dang's posts every now and again to take in the job that he does and how patient he can be, even with antagonism aimed directly at HN or himself personally. From time to time I also have a look at the histories of some of those antagonistic people. Frequently there are signs that their behaviour was not always like this. Recent posts might be outright abusive and sound like the postings of angry teenagers. A few years earlier they might have been posting reasonable discussions on their thesis topic or tutorials on some useful subjects. Keeping that in mind helps you realise that these are real people and there may be other things going on in their life. I think there are some good things to learn from people who work with addicts. You can simultaneously challenge bad behaviour and be compassionate to the person who committed it. Similarly, this is why I'm not a fan of cancelling people or holding them forever accountable for past bad behaviour. If they recognise that their behaviour was bad and are endeavouring to not be that way again, I don't think permanent ostracism benefits anyone. If anything it restricts people to a community that amplifies their negative behaviour.
      - pvg 1y ago
        I can't really relate to the mindset of people who use downvoting as a 'I disagree' button. That's a valid use of the button by design, HN is literally made to allow for that use. Plus it mimics real life interactions - there is a social cost/friction to saying things people disagree with or think are outright wrong. Most online chitchat places deteriorate because they remove such social frictions.
- incoming1211 1y ago
  The problem is HN is mainly left leaning so its difficult to have discussion at times as dang and the community will shut it down quickly as differing opinions are not welcome even if its factual. (chances are people will downvote without comment or scream "ThAtS nOt TrUe") (Love how HN proved my comment as correct)
  - roflyear 1y ago
    Sure but I'm not even talking politics! My comment itself was barely a criticism of HN and, yeah, downvotes don't matter - but it's exactly what I am talking about. Any push against that coziness/bubble is not tolerated. I do think it's OK for some forums - if the community agrees - to say certain topics (like politics) are off limits. I don't really think it's ok for a community to say discussion about what should be discussed is off limits... or being critical of policies, the bubble, etc...
    - hackyhacky 1y ago
      > My comment itself was barely a criticism of HN Your comment is (a) off-topic and (b) smacks of a complaint about not getting enough up-votes. Neither of these areas are looked upon positively in HN. If this style of comment is your modus operandi, it may explain why your work is not well-received, and in short it has nothing to do with the popularity of your opinions.
      - roflyear 1y ago
        With respect, those are two strawmen.
        hackyhacky 1y ago
        No, I am just describing your comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43559544 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43559544
        1y ago
- whalesalad 1y ago
  [flagged]
- otterley 1y ago
  Then you're not spending enough time reading the comments on controversial stories. Disagreement is alive and well on HN.
  - ep103 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - dang 1y ago
      We don't delete posts unless their authors ask us to. The most that happens to a user-flagged or otherwise moderated post is that it does into the [dead] state, and [dead[ posts aren't deleted. They remain visible to anyone with 'showdead' turned on in their profile. If anyone wants more, here's a longer explanation from the other day: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43538728 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43538728.
      - realityfactchex 1y ago
        > The most that happens to a user-flagged or otherwise moderated post is that it does into the [dead] state...They remain visible to anyone with 'showdead' turned on in their profile. And that is a huge reason why HN's flagging/moderation is rather good! Thanks for the good system.
  - xboxnolifes 1y ago
    I disagree. People will frequently say that downvoting is not for disagreeing, but in every controversial thread dissenting opinions are quickly downvoted and frequently flagged. Some recover, but many die or end up pushed down into obscurity. Mildly controversial opinions sometimes survive and get discussion, but anything past that rarely get a reply and just get downvoted and flagged into oblivion. This isn't exactly a slight against HN, as this happens basically everywhere past a tiny userbase community. But I don't think it's particularly right to put HN on a pedestal for its ability to handle controversy.
    - 1y ago
- homefree 1y ago
  Your comment being downvoted for suggesting dissenting opinions are not treated well on HN kinda makes your point. I agree in general and spend less time here because of it. HN is still not as bad as many alternatives, but I wouldn't say it's great for ideologically diverse views.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - pvg 1y ago
    If you think your dissenting opinions should be popular, your opinions probably aren't all that dissenting. This person's dissenting meta-opinion is unpopular, it's still there and it's still being discussed. Discomfort is inherent in dissent, it's not people putting a lot of likes on your NormanRockwellFourFreedomsPainting.gif.
    - homefree 1y ago
      It's not that they need to be popular, it's that voting them down leads them to be dropped off from view (and makes it less likely dissenting views will be shared). Reddit is the extreme case of this where anything outside the majority group consensus is heresy to be voted down/hidden/banned. Better sites don't do this and have in-good-faith discussion despite disagreement.
      - pvg 1y ago
        Can you link some of these better discussions on better sites? Dissenting views are regularly highly visible, often as replies to consensus views. Even better - well-argued counter-narrative/counter-conventional wisdom views regularly appear as top or highly ranked comments. That's because the people making those arguments do what sensible people do when making an unpopular argument - they put in the work to make their case more persuasive. They don't sit around complaining that the other kids don't listen to them, they care about their issue enough to try to work with human nature rather than hoping some magical technology will change human nature for them.
- megadata 1y ago
  I think the fact that you're being downvoted for your comment proves your point.
  - layer8 1y ago
    There is a difference between downvoting and flagging, and between flagging and moderating.
    - megadata 1y ago
      I said nothing about that.
    - rectang 1y ago
      The effect is the same — the comment becomes unreadable.
  - megadata 1y ago
    And me pointing it out is also being downvoted.
    - ziddoap 1y ago
      Probably because a single example at a single time point can't really be extrapolated to the entire platform across all times. The comment being downvoted proves nothing (as evidenced by the fact it's now upvoted to the 2nd top comment!) And this comment of yours I'm replying to will probably get downvoted because it's a complaint about votes that contributes literally nothing to the conversation (in fact, detracts from it).
      - megadata 1y ago
        > because it's a complaint about votes It's not a complaint. I'm just pointing them out. Without them I couldn't argue my case at all.
    - dang 1y ago
      Yes, because the comments are offtopic and against the site guidelines (see the bottom of https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html). "I the noble freethinker, standing bravely against the mob" comments are boring and repetitive, and therefore always off topic.
- perching_aix 1y ago
  Is that a moderation issue? Because to me that's more of a system / culture issue. You can't argue in people's stead. If most dissenting commentary is hurtful, inciteful, manipulative, generally demagogue, etc., it's going to get culled, and you get a situation where "dissent isn't thriving".
  - Teever 1y ago
    Moderation drives culture and should in the very least offset the worst tendencies of culture. Otherwise, what exactly is moderation for?
    - perching_aix 1y ago
      Moderation does participate in the culture of course, but I disagree that it would drive it necessarily. You can only do so much by reminding people to align with the posting guidelines and removing ill fitting posts and individuals.
      - Teever 1y ago
        This place would look like 4chan if it wasn't for the moderation. Moderation absolutely drives the culture, by setting a tone that drives away certain users while attracting others. In other words what ever issues a site has are inherently due to moderation whether it be a choice on the part the moderators or a lack of resources to moderate as they would like to.
        perching_aix 1y ago
        I don't think we're actually disagreeing. Yes, moderation is key, but ultimately people post the content. As you say, it's a matter of attraction. But if the target group of attraction is empty, there's no amount of moderation that can help that.
- iambateman 1y ago
  I'm like 80% sure this is trolling as a tee up for all the people responding with "HECK YEA DISSENT IS HAPPENING." :D
- airstrike 1y ago
  On the one hand, I think it's a bit unfair that this comment is currently downvoted as it's discussing moderation on a topic about moderation, so very much on-topic in this particular submission. On the other hand, I think it needs to be more specific in order to be valuable feedback. Which dissenting opinions? Can you provide specific examples of comments you think got unreasonably flagged? There's been an uptick in political posts which are off-topic per the guidelines, so an uptick in the absolute number of flagged submissions would just mean the community is properly enforcing the guidelines, which is good. However, as a consequence of that uptick in political submissions and flagging, there's also an uptick in the number of users complaining a post is unjustly flagged, because they incorrectly conflate enforcing the guidelines with political opinion, and that is not good. I think a lot of users are tired of this back and forth, so my guess is they are reading between the lines of what you said (since you didn't provide specifics) and filling in the blank with what _they_ think you mean about undeserved flagging, with the topic of politics being top of mind at the moment. This shows that being specific helps both by providing actionable feedback while also increasing clarity, which is your responsibility as a communicator.
  - layer8 1y ago
    My understanding is that flagging does not imply moderation. When enough people flag a comment, it becomes dead automatically. There is, separately, the case that a moderator “kills” an unacceptable comment, but then it only appears as [dead] I believe (unless it was also being flagged by people). Someone correct me if this is wrong.
    - airstrike 1y ago
      Moderation by the community is still moderation.
      - layer8 1y ago
        Well, you can call it that, but there is not a singular will or policy behind what is getting flagged, and the HN “community” isn’t homogeneous. HN users can also “vouch” to counteract flagging. It only takes a single vouch to un-kill a comment.
- tracker1 1y ago
  Strong disagree here... While there are definitely those that will bury some opinions with downvotes, there are others that will upvote. Conservative, Libertarian, Progressive, Liberal and even outright Communist views get expressed in varying comments and that's just political leanings. I only really recognize this because I'll be actively reading/replying sometimes and see comments go +/- 2-3 up or down votes back and forth on the same comment. While you may be at say -2, that's just the aggregate. I sometimes wish I could see the total up/down votes just out of curiosity.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
- jdoliner 1y ago
  My experience is that HN's Overton window is probably on average 15-20% larger than most forums. That's not uniform across all topics though. So if you skew toward a particular set of topics it may feel like a typical forum, or even in some ways more constrained.
  - layer8 1y ago
    My feeling is it also depends on weekday vs. weekend, and on the time of day (or night).
  - hbn 1y ago
    My issue is it seems like something has to only be a bit controversial to be completely hidden from everyone. There was the recent DF article about how Gruber thinks his articles are being artificially shitlisted and I can't help but agree? I don't necessarily think the mods have their fingers on the scale, but I wouldn't be surprised if the algorithm works in a way where if enough people flag something it gets automatically hidden, and there's enough people who see DF and automatically flag it that those blog posts get hidden every time.
    - J_Shelby_J 1y ago
      I follow the HN subreddit and routinely see very active threads that aren’t in the feed.
    - dang 1y ago
      That site had 11 major frontpage threads in the last year, which is a lot. Every single one of them set off the flamewar detector. That's extremely unusual. If it were one or two I'd call it random, but 11 in a row, whatever the reason, is not random. We turned off that software penalty on about half of those threads.
      - yorwba 1y ago
        In his article https://daringfireball.net/2025/03/the_website_hacker_news_is_afraid_to_discuss https://daringfireball.net/2025/03/the_website_hacker_news_i... he mentions several times that he is aiming for "comment traction," treating articles with more comments than upvotes as successful while complaining that recently there haven't been as many comments. It does make sense that DaringFireball would consider starting a flamewar a job well done, but of course HN is optimizing for the opposite.
- infecto 1y ago
  I think it’s a tough balance because you want discussion but certain topics have diminishing returns.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- altairprime 1y ago
  HN does not welcome dissenting opinions in certain areas of tech where the individual freedoms of techies come into conflict with status quo social harms to non-techies; so, for example, you won’t see many HN articles about the ethical dilemmas of working at Palantir, how our industry’s libertarian foundations obstruct labor organizing today, what advantages the ‘bros’ receive in return for their misogyny, and so on. HN is a light-touch moderation site — as libertarian as possible, in keeping with our roots — so I certainly don’t hold the mods as responsible for the community’s defensiveness in that regard. In general, whether tech or otherwise, it’s not possible for a community to welcome uncomfortable dissent against its own underpinnings without a heavier hand on the moderation wheel than is cultural acceptable for HN and for our community. That doesn’t mean that HN rejects all dissent — certainly they may be other pillars of obstinance I haven’t personally identified and studied over the past fifteen or twenty years participating here — but, yes, absolutely, HN’s community has zero tolerance for certain dissent.
  - saagarjha 1y ago
    You don't see those articles because they get flagged instantly by users. You'll see plenty of comments on it though.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- r00fus 1y ago
  There are some shibboleths that you absolutely can't touch or you'll be downvoted rigorously. But less than on other fora.
jdoliner 1y ago
> On the face of it, HN should be terrible. It's a forum owned an investment firm as promotion for their business. I think it's at least as plausible that this is part of the magic that makes it good. HN is sufficiently "on the margin" that they don't have to do things like placate advertisers with their moderation policies. The mods like dang, tomhow and pg mostly care about HN as users rather than owners. > It would be a good thing for the world if HN was spun out as a non-profit and maintained long-term. That sounds good in theory... in practice it might be the beginning of the end. Once there's a non-profit behind it the non-profit has a mission of its own. Although I'm actually not sure of the legal status of HN right now, maybe it's already something like that.
- bell-cot 1y ago
  Before even the "has a mission of its own" part, an independent non-profit needs to pay its bills. I suspect that dang & Co. aren't working for free. Similar for servers & internet connections & etc. And I'd bet that few people here want to see ads, or start paying for their accounts.
  - tomcam 1y ago
    I hope dang and tomhow get rich doing this job. I'd happily pay for HN too.
  - ZeWaka 1y ago
    I imagine 90% of users here would just block any ads anyways.
  - sanswork 1y ago
    People here see ads regularly which is how hn pays the bills. YC hiring posts and company launches are all paid ads in the sense that being allowed to post them is why YC funds hn.
  - foobarian 1y ago
    It seems a lot like the Emperor Joseph II - Mozart situation or countless others like it through history. You could ask Mozart to start a nonprofit, find customers etc. but it sure is convenient when there is a Joseph II around who appreciates the arts.
nwgo 1y ago
[dead]
throw_m239339 1y ago
I was there since around 2015 and the evolution of that forum and its population/opinion has been very interesting, to say to put it mildly... Remember when the biggest disagreements were about ORM & Frameworks? I miss those days. I didnt even mind the discussion about the ethics of Uber or Airbnb, but now, now it is different, & not for the better.
- djhn 1y ago
  I've been here since around that time and to be honest, I haven't noticed much of a change for the worse. The world around us has changed, political life may have gotten slightly more complex, but the community feels just as friendly, curious and insightful.
  - mettamage 1y ago
    Yea same for me. Nothing much has changed here. I guess it used to be a bit more technical? But just a bit (I miss the Dolphin emulator status updates - they got me hooked on the technical content posted on this site)
- Swenrekcah 1y ago
  The whole western world is different and not for the better since 2015. Erosion of public trust since then is tremendous and regrettable so it is not surprising that we miss the communities that once were.
- sanswork 1y ago
  So been here slightly longer and the only shift I can recall is a shift away from business to tech. Early days had a lot more discussion about the business side of startups and vc. Then it started shifting more towards tech too the point now where startup/business discussion is mostly limited to Show/Ask posts.
  - Karrot_Kream 1y ago
    The loss of chatter around the soft skills around tech (so business but also UI/UX design, design patterns, organizational approaches (like holocracy), planning processes, etc) has made HN a lot less interesting IMO. If I just wanted the usual tinfoil hat FOSS BOFH content, then I can go literally anywhere else. Reddit, Matrix, IRC, Telegram, Twitter, Bluesky, Mastodon, they're all full of it. Then there's the widening of scope to big social issues that's a different matter altogether.
frereubu 1y ago
> It would be a good thing for the world if HN was spun out as a non-profit and maintained long-term. But in any case, we can all hope that it will at least continue to be stewarded by good people for a while longer. If it ain't broke, don't fix it...

roflyear 1y ago

I really don't think that HN lets dissenting opinions thrive (well, not anything that is truly controversial but not clearly hateful). That may feel cozy but it's not a reflection of anything pure or good, imo.

RicoElectrico 1y ago
[flagged]
- roflyear 1y ago
  Yeah! Absolutely. They want the wheel to keep turning - and I do too, if I'm being honest! I get paid from the system like lots of people here. I just would like for more people to acknowledge that. IDK. Seems more honest and more fitting to what everyone says the HN culture "really is."
pstuart 1y ago
I'm not sure about that, but a lot of it depends on what you consider to be "dissenting opinions".
- roflyear 1y ago
  I agree it depends on the definition. Quite honestly my vibe, and really that is all it is for any of us discussing this, is pretty much anything more aggressive than my comment above (or even including my comment above, once more people read it). I definitely DO NOT mean clear hate speech, etc.. that's not my point at all.
  - alwa 1y ago
    I, for one, come here in substantial part for the norms against aggression and toward calm substantive discussion. Shouting matches and rhetorical posturing are exhausting. There are places for that—most places online, anymore; this is not one of them.
  - mac-mc 1y ago
    So, do you mean you don't like tone policing? You can say pretty much anything as long as the tone stays intellectual and doesn't go into brain damage politics, harassment, or conspiracy zone where it's being banned because it's off-topic and, frankly, exhausting and unproductive.
    - roflyear 1y ago
      No, and if you read the tone of my posts and even the tone of dang (and others) here I would argue that my tone is not out of line and arguably more polite. But I'm the one that is rate limited in this thread and prevented from interacting with people politely.
- kccqzy 1y ago
  For example, having the opinion that manifest V3 is good for users is an opinion that will not thrive on HN. Personally I hope Tom will bring new moderation policies that will truly let unpopular opinions thrive, but I don't have high hopes here since this is just an announcement of a new moderator, not an announcement of new moderation policies.
  - 1y ago
jszymborski 1y ago
Little ironic considering you're the second comment everyone sees on this thread at the moment.
- roflyear 1y ago
  Well, let's see how that plays out first, I did just post it a few minutes ago (refresh has me at 0 karma fyi)
  - Lerc 1y ago
    It is a shame that people will downvote a thing that is expressing an honest opinion. I can't really relate to the mindset of people who use downvoting as a 'I disagree' button. I don't think this extends to the way that HN is moderated or run. It is worth looking at dang's posts every now and again to take in the job that he does and how patient he can be, even with antagonism aimed directly at HN or himself personally. From time to time I also have a look at the histories of some of those antagonistic people. Frequently there are signs that their behaviour was not always like this. Recent posts might be outright abusive and sound like the postings of angry teenagers. A few years earlier they might have been posting reasonable discussions on their thesis topic or tutorials on some useful subjects. Keeping that in mind helps you realise that these are real people and there may be other things going on in their life. I think there are some good things to learn from people who work with addicts. You can simultaneously challenge bad behaviour and be compassionate to the person who committed it. Similarly, this is why I'm not a fan of cancelling people or holding them forever accountable for past bad behaviour. If they recognise that their behaviour was bad and are endeavouring to not be that way again, I don't think permanent ostracism benefits anyone. If anything it restricts people to a community that amplifies their negative behaviour.
    - pvg 1y ago
      I can't really relate to the mindset of people who use downvoting as a 'I disagree' button. That's a valid use of the button by design, HN is literally made to allow for that use. Plus it mimics real life interactions - there is a social cost/friction to saying things people disagree with or think are outright wrong. Most online chitchat places deteriorate because they remove such social frictions.
incoming1211 1y ago
The problem is HN is mainly left leaning so its difficult to have discussion at times as dang and the community will shut it down quickly as differing opinions are not welcome even if its factual. (chances are people will downvote without comment or scream "ThAtS nOt TrUe") (Love how HN proved my comment as correct)
- roflyear 1y ago
  Sure but I'm not even talking politics! My comment itself was barely a criticism of HN and, yeah, downvotes don't matter - but it's exactly what I am talking about. Any push against that coziness/bubble is not tolerated. I do think it's OK for some forums - if the community agrees - to say certain topics (like politics) are off limits. I don't really think it's ok for a community to say discussion about what should be discussed is off limits... or being critical of policies, the bubble, etc...
  - hackyhacky 1y ago
    > My comment itself was barely a criticism of HN Your comment is (a) off-topic and (b) smacks of a complaint about not getting enough up-votes. Neither of these areas are looked upon positively in HN. If this style of comment is your modus operandi, it may explain why your work is not well-received, and in short it has nothing to do with the popularity of your opinions.
    - roflyear 1y ago
      With respect, those are two strawmen.
      - hackyhacky 1y ago
        No, I am just describing your comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43559544 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43559544
        1y ago
whalesalad 1y ago
[flagged]
otterley 1y ago
Then you're not spending enough time reading the comments on controversial stories. Disagreement is alive and well on HN.
- ep103 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - dang 1y ago
    We don't delete posts unless their authors ask us to. The most that happens to a user-flagged or otherwise moderated post is that it does into the [dead] state, and [dead[ posts aren't deleted. They remain visible to anyone with 'showdead' turned on in their profile. If anyone wants more, here's a longer explanation from the other day: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43538728 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43538728.
    - realityfactchex 1y ago
      > The most that happens to a user-flagged or otherwise moderated post is that it does into the [dead] state...They remain visible to anyone with 'showdead' turned on in their profile. And that is a huge reason why HN's flagging/moderation is rather good! Thanks for the good system.
- xboxnolifes 1y ago
  I disagree. People will frequently say that downvoting is not for disagreeing, but in every controversial thread dissenting opinions are quickly downvoted and frequently flagged. Some recover, but many die or end up pushed down into obscurity. Mildly controversial opinions sometimes survive and get discussion, but anything past that rarely get a reply and just get downvoted and flagged into oblivion. This isn't exactly a slight against HN, as this happens basically everywhere past a tiny userbase community. But I don't think it's particularly right to put HN on a pedestal for its ability to handle controversy.
  - 1y ago
homefree 1y ago
Your comment being downvoted for suggesting dissenting opinions are not treated well on HN kinda makes your point. I agree in general and spend less time here because of it. HN is still not as bad as many alternatives, but I wouldn't say it's great for ideologically diverse views.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- pvg 1y ago
  If you think your dissenting opinions should be popular, your opinions probably aren't all that dissenting. This person's dissenting meta-opinion is unpopular, it's still there and it's still being discussed. Discomfort is inherent in dissent, it's not people putting a lot of likes on your NormanRockwellFourFreedomsPainting.gif.
  - homefree 1y ago
    It's not that they need to be popular, it's that voting them down leads them to be dropped off from view (and makes it less likely dissenting views will be shared). Reddit is the extreme case of this where anything outside the majority group consensus is heresy to be voted down/hidden/banned. Better sites don't do this and have in-good-faith discussion despite disagreement.
    - pvg 1y ago
      Can you link some of these better discussions on better sites? Dissenting views are regularly highly visible, often as replies to consensus views. Even better - well-argued counter-narrative/counter-conventional wisdom views regularly appear as top or highly ranked comments. That's because the people making those arguments do what sensible people do when making an unpopular argument - they put in the work to make their case more persuasive. They don't sit around complaining that the other kids don't listen to them, they care about their issue enough to try to work with human nature rather than hoping some magical technology will change human nature for them.
megadata 1y ago
I think the fact that you're being downvoted for your comment proves your point.
- layer8 1y ago
  There is a difference between downvoting and flagging, and between flagging and moderating.
  - megadata 1y ago
    I said nothing about that.
  - rectang 1y ago
    The effect is the same — the comment becomes unreadable.
- megadata 1y ago
  And me pointing it out is also being downvoted.
  - ziddoap 1y ago
    Probably because a single example at a single time point can't really be extrapolated to the entire platform across all times. The comment being downvoted proves nothing (as evidenced by the fact it's now upvoted to the 2nd top comment!) And this comment of yours I'm replying to will probably get downvoted because it's a complaint about votes that contributes literally nothing to the conversation (in fact, detracts from it).
    - megadata 1y ago
      > because it's a complaint about votes It's not a complaint. I'm just pointing them out. Without them I couldn't argue my case at all.
  - dang 1y ago
    Yes, because the comments are offtopic and against the site guidelines (see the bottom of https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html). "I the noble freethinker, standing bravely against the mob" comments are boring and repetitive, and therefore always off topic.
perching_aix 1y ago
Is that a moderation issue? Because to me that's more of a system / culture issue. You can't argue in people's stead. If most dissenting commentary is hurtful, inciteful, manipulative, generally demagogue, etc., it's going to get culled, and you get a situation where "dissent isn't thriving".
- Teever 1y ago
  Moderation drives culture and should in the very least offset the worst tendencies of culture. Otherwise, what exactly is moderation for?
  - perching_aix 1y ago
    Moderation does participate in the culture of course, but I disagree that it would drive it necessarily. You can only do so much by reminding people to align with the posting guidelines and removing ill fitting posts and individuals.
    - Teever 1y ago
      This place would look like 4chan if it wasn't for the moderation. Moderation absolutely drives the culture, by setting a tone that drives away certain users while attracting others. In other words what ever issues a site has are inherently due to moderation whether it be a choice on the part the moderators or a lack of resources to moderate as they would like to.
      - perching_aix 1y ago
        I don't think we're actually disagreeing. Yes, moderation is key, but ultimately people post the content. As you say, it's a matter of attraction. But if the target group of attraction is empty, there's no amount of moderation that can help that.
iambateman 1y ago
I'm like 80% sure this is trolling as a tee up for all the people responding with "HECK YEA DISSENT IS HAPPENING." :D
airstrike 1y ago
On the one hand, I think it's a bit unfair that this comment is currently downvoted as it's discussing moderation on a topic about moderation, so very much on-topic in this particular submission. On the other hand, I think it needs to be more specific in order to be valuable feedback. Which dissenting opinions? Can you provide specific examples of comments you think got unreasonably flagged? There's been an uptick in political posts which are off-topic per the guidelines, so an uptick in the absolute number of flagged submissions would just mean the community is properly enforcing the guidelines, which is good. However, as a consequence of that uptick in political submissions and flagging, there's also an uptick in the number of users complaining a post is unjustly flagged, because they incorrectly conflate enforcing the guidelines with political opinion, and that is not good. I think a lot of users are tired of this back and forth, so my guess is they are reading between the lines of what you said (since you didn't provide specifics) and filling in the blank with what _they_ think you mean about undeserved flagging, with the topic of politics being top of mind at the moment. This shows that being specific helps both by providing actionable feedback while also increasing clarity, which is your responsibility as a communicator.
- layer8 1y ago
  My understanding is that flagging does not imply moderation. When enough people flag a comment, it becomes dead automatically. There is, separately, the case that a moderator “kills” an unacceptable comment, but then it only appears as [dead] I believe (unless it was also being flagged by people). Someone correct me if this is wrong.
  - airstrike 1y ago
    Moderation by the community is still moderation.
    - layer8 1y ago
      Well, you can call it that, but there is not a singular will or policy behind what is getting flagged, and the HN “community” isn’t homogeneous. HN users can also “vouch” to counteract flagging. It only takes a single vouch to un-kill a comment.
tracker1 1y ago
Strong disagree here... While there are definitely those that will bury some opinions with downvotes, there are others that will upvote. Conservative, Libertarian, Progressive, Liberal and even outright Communist views get expressed in varying comments and that's just political leanings. I only really recognize this because I'll be actively reading/replying sometimes and see comments go +/- 2-3 up or down votes back and forth on the same comment. While you may be at say -2, that's just the aggregate. I sometimes wish I could see the total up/down votes just out of curiosity.
- deleted 1y ago
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jdoliner 1y ago
My experience is that HN's Overton window is probably on average 15-20% larger than most forums. That's not uniform across all topics though. So if you skew toward a particular set of topics it may feel like a typical forum, or even in some ways more constrained.
- layer8 1y ago
  My feeling is it also depends on weekday vs. weekend, and on the time of day (or night).
- hbn 1y ago
  My issue is it seems like something has to only be a bit controversial to be completely hidden from everyone. There was the recent DF article about how Gruber thinks his articles are being artificially shitlisted and I can't help but agree? I don't necessarily think the mods have their fingers on the scale, but I wouldn't be surprised if the algorithm works in a way where if enough people flag something it gets automatically hidden, and there's enough people who see DF and automatically flag it that those blog posts get hidden every time.
  - J_Shelby_J 1y ago
    I follow the HN subreddit and routinely see very active threads that aren’t in the feed.
  - dang 1y ago
    That site had 11 major frontpage threads in the last year, which is a lot. Every single one of them set off the flamewar detector. That's extremely unusual. If it were one or two I'd call it random, but 11 in a row, whatever the reason, is not random. We turned off that software penalty on about half of those threads.
    - yorwba 1y ago
      In his article https://daringfireball.net/2025/03/the_website_hacker_news_is_afraid_to_discuss https://daringfireball.net/2025/03/the_website_hacker_news_i... he mentions several times that he is aiming for "comment traction," treating articles with more comments than upvotes as successful while complaining that recently there haven't been as many comments. It does make sense that DaringFireball would consider starting a flamewar a job well done, but of course HN is optimizing for the opposite.
infecto 1y ago
I think it’s a tough balance because you want discussion but certain topics have diminishing returns.
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altairprime 1y ago
HN does not welcome dissenting opinions in certain areas of tech where the individual freedoms of techies come into conflict with status quo social harms to non-techies; so, for example, you won’t see many HN articles about the ethical dilemmas of working at Palantir, how our industry’s libertarian foundations obstruct labor organizing today, what advantages the ‘bros’ receive in return for their misogyny, and so on. HN is a light-touch moderation site — as libertarian as possible, in keeping with our roots — so I certainly don’t hold the mods as responsible for the community’s defensiveness in that regard. In general, whether tech or otherwise, it’s not possible for a community to welcome uncomfortable dissent against its own underpinnings without a heavier hand on the moderation wheel than is cultural acceptable for HN and for our community. That doesn’t mean that HN rejects all dissent — certainly they may be other pillars of obstinance I haven’t personally identified and studied over the past fifteen or twenty years participating here — but, yes, absolutely, HN’s community has zero tolerance for certain dissent.
- saagarjha 1y ago
  You don't see those articles because they get flagged instantly by users. You'll see plenty of comments on it though.
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r00fus 1y ago
There are some shibboleths that you absolutely can't touch or you'll be downvoted rigorously. But less than on other fora.

jdoliner 1y ago

> On the face of it, HN should be terrible. It's a forum owned an investment firm as promotion for their business. I think it's at least as plausible that this is part of the magic that makes it good. HN is sufficiently "on the margin" that they don't have to do things like placate advertisers with their moderation policies. The mods like dang, tomhow and pg mostly care about HN as users rather than owners. > It would be a good thing for the world if HN was spun out as a non-profit and maintained long-term. That sounds good in theory... in practice it might be the beginning of the end. Once there's a non-profit behind it the non-profit has a mission of its own. Although I'm actually not sure of the legal status of HN right now, maybe it's already something like that.

bell-cot 1y ago
Before even the "has a mission of its own" part, an independent non-profit needs to pay its bills. I suspect that dang & Co. aren't working for free. Similar for servers & internet connections & etc. And I'd bet that few people here want to see ads, or start paying for their accounts.
- tomcam 1y ago
  I hope dang and tomhow get rich doing this job. I'd happily pay for HN too.
- ZeWaka 1y ago
  I imagine 90% of users here would just block any ads anyways.
- sanswork 1y ago
  People here see ads regularly which is how hn pays the bills. YC hiring posts and company launches are all paid ads in the sense that being allowed to post them is why YC funds hn.
- foobarian 1y ago
  It seems a lot like the Emperor Joseph II - Mozart situation or countless others like it through history. You could ask Mozart to start a nonprofit, find customers etc. but it sure is convenient when there is a Joseph II around who appreciates the arts.

nwgo 1y ago

[dead]

throw_m239339 1y ago

I was there since around 2015 and the evolution of that forum and its population/opinion has been very interesting, to say to put it mildly... Remember when the biggest disagreements were about ORM & Frameworks? I miss those days. I didnt even mind the discussion about the ethics of Uber or Airbnb, but now, now it is different, & not for the better.

djhn 1y ago
I've been here since around that time and to be honest, I haven't noticed much of a change for the worse. The world around us has changed, political life may have gotten slightly more complex, but the community feels just as friendly, curious and insightful.
- mettamage 1y ago
  Yea same for me. Nothing much has changed here. I guess it used to be a bit more technical? But just a bit (I miss the Dolphin emulator status updates - they got me hooked on the technical content posted on this site)
Swenrekcah 1y ago
The whole western world is different and not for the better since 2015. Erosion of public trust since then is tremendous and regrettable so it is not surprising that we miss the communities that once were.
sanswork 1y ago
So been here slightly longer and the only shift I can recall is a shift away from business to tech. Early days had a lot more discussion about the business side of startups and vc. Then it started shifting more towards tech too the point now where startup/business discussion is mostly limited to Show/Ask posts.
- Karrot_Kream 1y ago
  The loss of chatter around the soft skills around tech (so business but also UI/UX design, design patterns, organizational approaches (like holocracy), planning processes, etc) has made HN a lot less interesting IMO. If I just wanted the usual tinfoil hat FOSS BOFH content, then I can go literally anywhere else. Reddit, Matrix, IRC, Telegram, Twitter, Bluesky, Mastodon, they're all full of it. Then there's the widening of scope to big social issues that's a different matter altogether.

frereubu 1y ago

> It would be a good thing for the world if HN was spun out as a non-profit and maintained long-term. But in any case, we can all hope that it will at least continue to be stewarded by good people for a while longer. If it ain't broke, don't fix it...